Expansion campaigns?

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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FroBodine
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Expansion campaigns?

Post by FroBodine » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:03 pm

How exactly is this game going to be released? Does the base game just come with a single 10 mission campaign? Are the other two campaigns, English Civil War and Italian Wars, separate expansions that cost extra?

If so, why is this? BA 2 released with four campaigns in the base game. This game just has one campaign?

The game looks outstanding, and I'm sure I'll buy it. I would just like some clarification on what the base game ships with, and what the expansion campaigns actually mean.

Thank you!

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:26 pm

FroBodine wrote:I would just like some clarification on what the base game ships with, and what the expansion campaigns actually mean.
The PC version is in fact coming out with all three campaigns in the base game. There are 4 tutorial missions set in the Thirty Years War, and 10 full-sized historical battles each from the Thirty Years War, English Civil War and Italian Wars. (So 30 historical battles in all).

This is in addition to unlimited random map games using historical army lists and featuring a variety of scenario types. As well as all the main contenders - for the TYW, Imperialists, Catholic League, German Protestants, Bohemians, Danes, Swedes, Spanish and French, these army lists feature additional armies not met in the main campaign scenarios, including Hungarian/Transylvanians, Ottoman Turks and Polish/Lithuanian Commonwealth. Each protagonist has a number of army lists covering different phases of their army's development over the course of the wars. A historical filter allows the scenario to be set up between historical opponents using the army list applying at the chosen date, but the historical filter can be turned off if you want to try an anachronistic "what if" matchup. The "skirmish" system also allows you either to choose your forces (within specified minima and maxima) or to let the computer select your forces for you.

Random map games can be played against the challenging AI or against a real player using Slitherine's extremely easy to use PBEM+ MP system.

23 of the historical scenarios can also be played in MP mode, with adjusted victory conditions to allow for one side's historical advantage.
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FroBodine
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by FroBodine » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:41 pm

Thank you, sir! Excellent news. Then, why does the game description say (expansion) in parentheses like that, next to the English Civil War and Italian Wars campaigns?

That is very misleading, in my opinion. Am I the only one who thinks when it says expansion, it means an extra purchase? That is what an expansion is, in gaming terms.

Great news. Thank you again!

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:43 pm

FroBodine wrote:Thank you, sir! Excellent news. Then, why does the game description say (expansion) in parentheses like that, next to the English Civil War and Italian Wars campaigns?

That is very misleading, in my opinion. Am I the only one who thinks when it says expansion, it means an extra purchase? That is what an expansion is, in gaming terms.
The plan for the initial PC release was changed, although the iPad version probably will have the ECW and Italian Wars as in-app purchases.
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FroBodine
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by FroBodine » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:11 am

Thank you for the clarification. Perhaps you should update the game description for the PC, so it does not say expansion, but says it includes all three campaigns.

Onwards to Friday!

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by NickDirlewanger » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:35 am

Would all 30 battles from campaigns be available on PC as standalone scenarios from both sides?

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:13 am

NickDirlewanger wrote:Would all 30 battles from campaigns be available on PC as standalone scenarios from both sides?
No, the standalone versions are from one side only because this is how the engine works. The battles for the scenarios have been picked so that the player is usually playing the side that was historically to some extent disadvantaged - though it may or may not have won the historical battle. So, for example, in the ECW and Italian Wars campaigns, sometimes the player will represent one side in the conflict and sometimes to other. Whichever we felt gave the best game.

In the MP versions, the victory conditions are adjusted, so that the advantaged side has to win without taking too many losses, and the disadvantaged side can sometimes "win" the scenario while losing the battle, if they manage to inflict enough losses on their opponent. We did not feel that such an adjustment would be appropriate for the SP versions, where we wanted the victory conditions to accurately represent the historical aims of the contenders - usually the defeat of the enemy army.
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NickDirlewanger
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by NickDirlewanger » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:03 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
NickDirlewanger wrote:Would all 30 battles from campaigns be available on PC as standalone scenarios from both sides?
No, the standalone versions are from one side only because this is how the engine works. The battles for the scenarios have been picked so that the player is usually playing the side that was historically to some extent disadvantaged - though it may or may not have won the historical battle. So, for example, in the ECW and Italian Wars campaigns, sometimes the player will represent one side in the conflict and sometimes to other. Whichever we felt gave the best game.

In the MP versions, the victory conditions are adjusted, so that the advantaged side has to win without taking too many losses, and the disadvantaged side can sometimes "win" the scenario while losing the battle, if they manage to inflict enough losses on their opponent. We did not feel that such an adjustment would be appropriate for the SP versions, where we wanted the victory conditions to accurately represent the historical aims of the contenders - usually the defeat of the enemy army.
That's very sad to hear. I hoped I'll be able to play particular battle just like in Musket&Pike: Renaissance, and not some campaigns and fictional encounters. Damn :(
Are there any pre-created single battles? Their editor? Could Multiplayer scenarios be played with opposing AI?

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:13 am

NickDirlewanger wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
NickDirlewanger wrote:Would all 30 battles from campaigns be available on PC as standalone scenarios from both sides?
No, the standalone versions are from one side only because this is how the engine works. The battles for the scenarios have been picked so that the player is usually playing the side that was historically to some extent disadvantaged - though it may or may not have won the historical battle. So, for example, in the ECW and Italian Wars campaigns, sometimes the player will represent one side in the conflict and sometimes to other. Whichever we felt gave the best game.

In the MP versions, the victory conditions are adjusted, so that the advantaged side has to win without taking too many losses, and the disadvantaged side can sometimes "win" the scenario while losing the battle, if they manage to inflict enough losses on their opponent. We did not feel that such an adjustment would be appropriate for the SP versions, where we wanted the victory conditions to accurately represent the historical aims of the contenders - usually the defeat of the enemy army.
That's very sad to hear. I hoped I'll be able to play particular battle just like in Musket&Pike: Renaissance, and not some campaigns and fictional encounters. Damn :(
Are there any pre-created single battles? Their editor? Could Multiplayer scenarios be played with opposing AI?
I am not entirely sure what you mean.

There are 30 pre-created single player historical battles vs the AI. All of these are stand-alone scenarios because trying to link them together would have been historically inappropriate when they are often involving entirely different protagonists 3 years apart!

There is also a full Editor to create more if you wish. This is the same Editor used to create the pre-created scenarios.
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NickDirlewanger
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by NickDirlewanger » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:16 am

rbodleyscott wrote:I am not entirely sure what you mean.

There are 30 pre-created single player historical battles vs the AI.
I thought you mean there are 3 campaigns with 10 scenarios each, not 30 standalone battles. Okay.

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:18 am

NickDirlewanger wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:I am not entirely sure what you mean.

There are 30 pre-created single player historical battles vs the AI.
I thought you mean there are 3 campaigns with 10 scenarios each, not 30 standalone battles. Okay.

Is there battle and map editor or you can only generate random ones and tweak armies?
There is a very complete battle and map editor - the same one used to create the pre-created scenarios.

If you want really good AI in your scenarios you might need to get into some scripting, although there are numerous script functions provided to make this easier. In particular, there is an AI_Masterplan() function that is suitable for straightforward scenarios.

Of course, if you are designing purely MP scenarios you don't need any AI.
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NickDirlewanger
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by NickDirlewanger » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:29 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
NickDirlewanger wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:I am not entirely sure what you mean.

There are 30 pre-created single player historical battles vs the AI.
I thought you mean there are 3 campaigns with 10 scenarios each, not 30 standalone battles. Okay.

Is there battle and map editor or you can only generate random ones and tweak armies?
There is a very complete battle and map editor - the same one used to create the pre-created scenarios.

If you want really good AI in your scenarios you might need to get into some scripting, although there are numerous script functions provided to make this easier. In particular, there is an AI_Masterplan() function that is suitable for straightforward scenarios.

Of course, if you are designing purely MP scenarios you don't need any AI.
That's nice! I'm sure I'll need it to create some minor battles I'm fond of. Thank you for answers.
Is there any info when on 17th of October game will be released? I'm in GMT+3 time zone so for example when there is noon in America it's almost night here. I'm gonna plan out friday and these weekends - two good events at once, Pike and Shot release and 5 years with my gf together :D

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:35 am

NickDirlewanger wrote:Is there any info when on 17th of October game will be released? I'm in GMT+3 time zone so for example when there is noon in America it's almost night here. I'm gonna plan out friday and these weekends - two good events at once, Pike and Shot release and 5 years with my gf together :D
I am afraid I do not have any information as to the time of release.
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IainMcNeil
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by IainMcNeil » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:20 am

The game will release here on the 16th and on Steam on the 17th. It is usually late in the day on Friday that we release on Steam.

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by gavril » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:25 am

This sounds great Richard! Come Friday I'll be sitting at my pc with my credit card at the ready hitting "refresh"! :D :D :D

Ooops, just seen Iain's message - I'd better make that Thursday then! :shock:

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by Schweinewitz » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:05 pm

All 30 battles! Thursday! Hurray! :D

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by NickDirlewanger » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:45 pm

Thursday? That's awesome! One dilemma for Friday - job or pike and shot... I think I know the choice :D

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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by Pixel » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:50 pm

Regarding the scenarios this first impressions article from the Wargamer lists the ones from the version they got to play: http://www.wargamer.com/article/3674/fi ... and-musket

From my short experience with the first Battle Academy the engine uses the word campaign to denote a series of scenarios that appear in the menu together. The BA editor requires you to make a campaign to put a new scenario into. I don't know if this will be the case with Pike and Shot. Anyways, these "campaigns" can be separate historical battles arranged by period as in Pike and Shot or can be used to tell a story with a narrative between smaller encounters as some of the Battle Academy scenarios do.

If you wanted you could probably use the editor to make 2 single player scenarios to cover both sides of a battle. But, as with Battle Academy the engine for single player allows one side only to be playable in a single scenario as far as I'm aware.

If any of this is incorrect let me know.
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:07 pm

Pixel, you are correct.
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Re: Expansion campaigns?

Post by jamespcrowley » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:15 pm

This looks to be an exciting game that covers ground barely touched by PC games and comparatively lightly covered by conventional board wargames.

However it seem a shame that these great battles can only be played from the perspective of a single side vs the AI.

I strongly suspect that I will be forced to play the Royalists in many of the English civil war battles - and I am a roundhead :shock:

Is there a possibility that reverse versions of these battles can be produced as an expansion, especially as the battles already exist in MP format.

Sure, the victory conditions have been skewed ahistorically to produce a balance but I'm sure most players would happily accept that in order to play their favoured side or to see what it was like on the other side.

It would also give the MP player who is playing the 'AI' side, so to speak, the chance to practice against the AI before tackling a battle with a live opponent who has been able to practice with the 'player' side.

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