TYW Polish Army - overly powerful?

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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SnuggleBunnies
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Re: TYW Polish Army - overly powerful?

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

The Polish lists are very effective against the earlier Western lists reliant on large pike blocks, or Early Pike and Shot, or to an extant the Early Tercio lists. These large units of infantry are too expensive to get very many, and the Polish cavalry are quite good at defeating Western style cavalry and missile support troops. Once isolated, the large pike units can be zone of control locked by cavalry and shot to bits by Haiduks.

But by the later Thirty Years War lists, the late style Pike and Shot units are numerous and cheap, and thus quite difficult for the Poles to defeat. Even the Russian army is difficult, thanks to the sheer number of Bardiche and Musket armed infantry to fill rough ground and woods.
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Veles
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Re: TYW Polish Army - overly powerful?

Post by Veles »

Salve fratres!

I know this topic has been dead for quite some time now, but I just couldn't resist addressing some of the misconceptions/ incorrect information mentioned in the discussion. So... here we go:
nikgaukroger wrote: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:36 am And as I have time to have a quick dig through Brzezinski's stuff here are a few more bits of info that may inform us.

The writers who mentioned the kopia being longer than pikes are all from post 1650 - at this time pikes were more usually in the 4.2m to 4.8 range.
Incorrect. Or at least only partially true. Guillaume de Beauplan, a French military engineer in Polish service published his memoirs post-1650 (Déscription de l’Ukraine) yet he was describing his years of service between 1630-40 and he states that hussar lances length could go even as high as 6,2 meters. (he stated that hussar lances were 19 feet long. While 'Le pied du Roy de France' was 0,324839385 m, 19 feet gives 6,172 m.)
nikgaukroger wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:14 am in use only about half the kopia would project in front of the horse whilst most of the pike projects in front of a man.
I'm sorry but this is also incorrect. Yes, when "presented" only a part of the lance is actually sticking in front of the horse's chest, so some of the lengths is "lost" but definitely not half of it, only about 1,2 meters are lost. Keep in mind that the lancer would lean forward.

You also have to keep in mind that some of the pike length is also lost.
Image

Here you can see pikemen in two stances: "Charge Your Pike" used against infantry, usually other pikemen, and "Receive Horse". In both you "lose" about a meter. As a pikeman reenactor, I might add that in my case in the "Receive Horse" position exactly 110 cm of my pike is behind my torso. You also have to remember that additional reach of the pike is lost due to having your pike at an angled position while the cavalry lance when aimed at the infantryman is also angled but far less so.
nikgaukroger wrote: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:43 am On the whole subject of the hussaria against pikemen I would, again, note that IIRC there is but a single example (Kircholm in 1605) where they did break a steady pike formation frontally unaided and that at the time that was seen as very unusual
You do not recall it correctly then. There are at least a couple of examples of this happening. Among which are the Battle near Jelgava/Mitau in 1622, the Battle of Klushino 1610, and the Battle of Basya in 1660. And such things don't appear to me as seen as very unusual if you skim through the Polish primary sources. Maybe they were boasting but the use of lances to break through pikemen is also discussed in Polish military treatises. Hardly a type of publication to boast in.
nikgaukroger wrote: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:36 am As an actual killing weapon the kopia appears to have been a bit naff against armoured troops. The Swedes describe them as shattering against their breastplates and doing little to no harm (IIRC one chap said 3 broke against his breastplate in one battle).
Hmmm, I find it kind of hard to believe. As a reenactor, I've never competed in jousting myself but I helped in organizing modern jousting tournaments as well as watched a ton of them and seen people being injured, sometimes very seriously despite using jousting armor and having the upper portions of the lances made from a special type of plastic that is slightly easier to break than wood and most importantly, it doesn't produce dangerous splinters.
Lances also have this nasty tendency to slide or glance onto weak spots like armpits or throat. Hence late medieval armors and early renaissance field and jousting armors have those areas reinforced, heavily. Later, reiter or cuirassier armors often lack those reinforcements. Not to mention that lancers, both medieval and later, hussars were trained to aim at the opponent's face. Even if the helmet stops the lance from penetrating the impact can knock you out or injure your neck.

Moreover, a few years ago, Polish historians tested replicas of hussar lances. These tests showed that the energy needed to break the hussar lance, with the dimensions used for the test, was 265 J. This is a lot, definitely enough to throw you out of the saddle.

I am not familiar with the source/sources you're referring to so I can't say for certain. What I can say is that Swedes tried to downplay the role of hussars/lancers and they have been called out for it by the contemporaries for it. One famous example regard XVII century Swedish historian/biographer who claimed that in the Battle of Warsaw 1656 Karl X Gustav managed to beat aside a hussar lance aimed at him with his rapier (one-handed !!!) to which Polish historian of the time and also a veteran hussar companion replied that such deed is as likely as parrying a lighting bolt with a rapier.
nikgaukroger wrote: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:36 am Faced with Gustavus' reformed Swedish army the proportion of hussaria in the army dropped from up to 75% of the cavalry to about 30% - which maybe suggestive of the Poles expectations. Greater numbers of lighter cavalry started to be recruited - also western style infantry.
Not quite I'm afraid. The data you used only includes the "Crown" army from the years 1609 and 1618 that doesn't include the Royal Guard and the Lithuanian Army. This is because we actually lack the date for those branches of the army. First of all the proportion of the hussars in the cavalry went back up in the crown army in 1621 to 44% but in raw numbers, the number of hussars actually doubled from about 4k to 8 thousand which is actually the highest in history, while the size of the whole (Crown) army tripled in comparison to 1609.

As for the greater number of infantry recruited, well it was mostly because Gustavus Adolphus 90% of the time was refusing open battles against Polish cavalry even if he had numerical superiority Instead each time when Polish Army appeared on the horizon he was ordering his mean to build heavy filed fortifications. If the pikemen were so great in stoping hussars then why Gustav wasn't keen on accepting open battle?
nikgaukroger wrote: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:57 am
Alma69 wrote:Every husar had 3 kopie. They where very expensive weapons.
But did not carry 3 at the same time. Historical information shows that after breaking their kopia subsequent charges would be undertaken with sword in hand - with those with unbroken kopia (if any) used in the front line.
Yes, and no. When possible, after a charge hussar banner would retreat to their army's rear where servants would wait for them with additional at the same time other banners could take their place and charge the enemy and if the said enemy withstood their attack the cycle would repeat, the returning banner would take their place and engage the enemy while the second banner would replace their lances. Battle of Klushino is a good example of using this tacting of attacking "in waves".

In the end, I just wanted to clarify that I don't think hussars should be buffed in the next installment or anything. I think they work perfectly well right now and are historically accurate enough. BTW, if someone wishes to continue this discussion I would suggest, doing so in a new thread.

Veles out.
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