Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

Moderators: rbodleyscott, Slitherine Core, Gothic Labs

batesmotel
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 3358
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by batesmotel » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:59 pm

Hi Keyth,

Thanks for the effort. Seems like the real lesson from this is that a campaign system really needs simplicity to work for multiple players. I get the impression that this one, along with a previous one for FoG that you tried , places far too much overhead on the games master. It is ok if every player doesn't fight every turn but campagin turn around needs to be pretty quick in that case so if I don't fight this turn it won't be too long before I won't have to wait too long for a turn to come where I can fight. Besides campaign simplicity. the other big thing to do this would probably be to use large areas for movement so there isn't a large number of places for armies to be. If you have any edition of DBA, looking at its campaign system might give you some idea. The boardgame Kingmaker might also be a decent starting point for how to break up England into areas although might still give you too many.

Chris
....where life is beautiful all the time

cavehobbit
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2010
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by cavehobbit » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:52 pm

Keyth, thanks for your effort. I must say I'm sad to see this campaign ending so soon. I really like these kind of strategic campaign. But as Chris says, each campaign turn needs to be pretty quick for those participating to keep their interest. It requires some work of the game master, and the two sides CiC's. But once you get going it usually runs quite well. I have experience from a Battle Academy campaign and know it works to run a campaign like this. In that campaign we even custom maps/scenarios for each battle, and still we run the campaign for over a year :)
What all who participate must be aware of is that a campaign like this is a strategic boardgame that uses P&S to resolve the battles. Personally I think the strategic game is as fun as to play the battles.

P-A

fairfax
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:00 pm

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by fairfax » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:33 am

Hi I have been following your campaign, but due to ill health I can't really take part. Although I have put my own campaign together using a map and using red or blue blocks to denote the Armies. I hope you don't mind but I used your rules, although made a few changes to suit myself. So I realise you have put alot of hard work into this. I hope you don't mind me asking but what is the TGR system ?

Anyway I will be playing on at my own pace but will watch with interest your future campaigns. You must be addicted to them and the hard work it takes to manage them ..

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 21821
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:15 pm

Warlord wrote:Massive effort on your part Keith with Behemoth, thanks for giving it a go.
My X Army sitting in York must be the most well fed and equipped army in the Game.. :D

Maybe the TGR system could be used in a TYW campaign?
That would be very nice, or even some wider effort using Tercio to Salvo.

What I would like to see is a greater variety of armies. The ECW armies are a bit "samey" compared with TYW or the whole of Europe.

Thanks for all your work Keyth.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 21821
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:20 pm

batesmotel wrote:If you have any edition of DBA, looking at its campaign system might give you some idea.
That campaign system being my only major contribution to DBA.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

Philippeatbay
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:19 pm

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by Philippeatbay » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:37 pm

One of the big problems that I saw with the Behemoth game was the lack of engagement. Most of the players simply weren't doing anything, and after a while it became very easy to settle into an attitude of "I'll pay attention if I'm called on to fight, but unless I hear otherwise I'm going to ignore this one".

I realize that there are inherent problems with what I'm about to suggest, but I would have thought a simple way to prevent collective ennui would be to restructure the way movement commands are given and transmitted.

As it stands the game is structured as a two player game. If you don't think you're going to be CiC, there's no incentive to even read the rules.

I think it would have been very different if the only commands that could move an army had come from the army commanders themselves, rather than their CiC.

That would, of course, have produced a fairly decent amount of chaos and missed orders, but that's part of the fun of a civil war.

The way I see it, the CiC's job should have been to tell people what to do, and they would have had a deadline for submitting their orders to the game master. The fun would come in putting the move together, because people would submit double orders, no orders, and orders after the deadline. And they wouldn't always have followed their CiC's suggestions.

The other thing that was missing from the campaign was a more robust siege mechanism. Faced with a choice between certain defeat over time, smaller armies would feel complelled to sally out and attack larger ones. Or not.

This kind of game structure would have put a significant burden on the game administrators, but the uninvolvement factor would have been contained because, at a very minimum, each general would have had to submit orders (or forget to submit orders) before the turn deadline. It's harder to be uninvolved in a game in which you do something every turn.

keyth
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1035
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:03 pm
Location: Devizes, UK

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by keyth » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:45 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Warlord wrote:Massive effort on your part Keith with Behemoth, thanks for giving it a go.
My X Army sitting in York must be the most well fed and equipped army in the Game.. :D

Maybe the TGR system could be used in a TYW campaign?
That would be very nice, or even some wider effort using Tercio to Salvo.

What I would like to see is a greater variety of armies. The ECW armies are a bit "samey" compared with TYW or the whole of Europe.

Thanks for all your work Keyth.
I have two options for the next 'project', one is daimyos running all over Japan and the other is another TGR in some guise. If anyone has any ideas about a good set of 'provinces' to use for a wider TYW incorporating Tercio to Salvo armies, please let me know and I'll throw it into the mix.
Keyth

ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

keyth
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1035
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:03 pm
Location: Devizes, UK

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by keyth » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:48 am

Philippe_at_bay wrote:One of the big problems that I saw with the Behemoth game was the lack of engagement. Most of the players simply weren't doing anything, and after a while it became very easy to settle into an attitude of "I'll pay attention if I'm called on to fight, but unless I hear otherwise I'm going to ignore this one".

I realize that there are inherent problems with what I'm about to suggest, but I would have thought a simple way to prevent collective ennui would be to restructure the way movement commands are given and transmitted.

As it stands the game is structured as a two player game. If you don't think you're going to be CiC, there's no incentive to even read the rules.

I think it would have been very different if the only commands that could move an army had come from the army commanders themselves, rather than their CiC.

That would, of course, have produced a fairly decent amount of chaos and missed orders, but that's part of the fun of a civil war.

The way I see it, the CiC's job should have been to tell people what to do, and they would have had a deadline for submitting their orders to the game master. The fun would come in putting the move together, because people would submit double orders, no orders, and orders after the deadline. And they wouldn't always have followed their CiC's suggestions.

The other thing that was missing from the campaign was a more robust siege mechanism. Faced with a choice between certain defeat over time, smaller armies would feel complelled to sally out and attack larger ones. Or not.

This kind of game structure would have put a significant burden on the game administrators, but the uninvolvement factor would have been contained because, at a very minimum, each general would have had to submit orders (or forget to submit orders) before the turn deadline. It's harder to be uninvolved in a game in which you do something every turn.
All valid points, thanks for taking the time to give me solid feedback. It was always going to be a bit of an experiment and it has highlighted to me the areas that need to be more abstract; to make managing the game relatively easy there needs to be much more flexibility in the system which will also give players battles every turn.
Keyth

ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

keyth
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1035
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:03 pm
Location: Devizes, UK

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by keyth » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:51 am

fairfax wrote:Hi I have been following your campaign, but due to ill health I can't really take part. Although I have put my own campaign together using a map and using red or blue blocks to denote the Armies. I hope you don't mind but I used your rules, although made a few changes to suit myself. So I realise you have put alot of hard work into this. I hope you don't mind me asking but what is the TGR system ?

Anyway I will be playing on at my own pace but will watch with interest your future campaigns. You must be addicted to them and the hard work it takes to manage them ..
I'm glad someone is using the rules - I think they stand up to two-player 'scrutiny' but not the numbers we had here. TGR is 'The Great Rebellion' which has its own thread. It is another ECW campaign but is far simpler and focuses on the mood of the country being affected by Parliamentary or Royalist victories.

Cheers.
Keyth

ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

fairfax
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:00 pm

Re: Behemoth - Campaign Thread

Post by fairfax » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:19 pm

Yes I noticed this campaign, but I thought the Behemoth campaign was more nteresting, the capture of Townes and having influence in different areas. the only thing there are alot of Townes that have been captured by either the Royalist or Parliament which have no Garrison, I may make it compulsory to garrison the Townes 100/200 points. Although this will reduce the size of the Armies.........But then the Armies were very small, compared to say the Napoleonic wars.

Regarding trying to get the points to fit....On Skirmish mode, if I can't get the exact figure I simply put the missing points down to sickness or desertion or the 101 reasons soldiers go missing.

At the moment I am watching a few videos on AGEods new game Thirty Years War. It seems the great difficulty is supply, and attrition in harsh weather. Players can't go marching over the place with massive Armies. I also know very little of the history of this period and am trying to learn about these conflicts which somehow have been forgotten...I have yet to look at the contents of this new patch for this game........So lots to look forward to.

Anyway best of luck with your new campaign using the superb Japanese mod, or where ever your campaigns take you.

Post Reply

Return to “Pike & Shot”