Wars of the Condottieri.

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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Galaahd
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Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by Galaahd » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:10 pm

I was wondering if you guys think that Pike & Shot might be suited to represent the type of warfare fought in XIV-XVth century Italy (before the Italian Wars).

I think it might be decent, after all the armies of the Condottieri were mainly composed of static formations of pikemen and halberds, crossbowmen (sometimes armed with pavise shields), lancers / knights and skirmishers.

I'm toying around the idea of creating some Condottieri battles, that might be fun.

TheGrayMouser
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:43 pm

Galaahd wrote:I was wondering if you guys think that Pike & Shot might be suited to represent the type of warfare fought in XIV-XVth century Italy (before the Italian Wars).

I think it might be decent, after all the armies of the Condottieri were mainly composed of static formations of pikemen and halberds, crossbowmen (sometimes armed with pavise shields), lancers / knights and skirmishers.

I'm toying around the idea of creating some Condottieri battles, that might be fun.
I'd enjoy em!

Paul59
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by Paul59 » Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:52 pm

Sounds great, give it a go!
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Hoplite1963
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by Hoplite1963 » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:02 pm

The revised medium crossbowmen class and the new Longbowmen graphics that come with "Pike & Shot Campaigns" should make this easier still, battles of Sir John Hawkwood etc. And how about the 100 Years War and the Wars of the Roses as well while we are at it. Lots of really good scenarios to convert from FOG here.

This game just gets better and better.

fogman
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by fogman » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:16 am

there are hundred of scenarios for field of glory, i personally did more than 50, and not one i can recall is about condottieri. there is very little information on that period. anything produced would be highly speculative. moreover, right now the system does not port well into medieval (there is a bug with respect to spears for example) so units really need to be heavily modified.

you can't really convert FOG scenarios into P&S scenarios. that is what i set out to do for Fornovo, Seminara and Cerignola. in the end it's all new specific designs although having the research done prior was a time saver.

Galaahd
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by Galaahd » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:56 am

fogman wrote:there are hundred of scenarios for field of glory, i personally did more than 50, and not one i can recall is about condottieri. there is very little information on that period. anything produced would be highly speculative. moreover, right now the system does not port well into medieval (there is a bug with respect to spears for example) so units really need to be heavily modified.

you can't really convert FOG scenarios into P&S scenarios. that is what i set out to do for Fornovo, Seminara and Cerignola. in the end it's all new specific designs although having the research done prior was a time saver.
Uhm what spears bug?

Anyway yeah I was planning first and foremost to mod the units and add new units lists (I was thinking to start with the White Company under John Hawkwood, and then have a unit list for a standard Condottiero army for every couple of decades, adding a few special armies ("Bracceschi", "Sforzeschi", maybe Hungarians). What I'm doing at the moment is just research, I'm re-reading the book on Condottieri by Mallet, as well as two Osprey books. Then I shall start researching the individual major battles of the period (I've already found enough material to get a decent enough rendition of a few battles). It won't be as accurate and as detailed as, say, the Battle of Fornovo or the Battle of Pavia, but it will be decent I think.

The problem, if anything, is how to represent certain units. For instance I have no idea on how to represent the "Carroccio". Also, it wasn't unusual for knights to dismount and fight on foot. There is no option to mount / dismount units in Pike & Shot as far as I know, so maybe I could add already dismounted units of knights on foot (and then they can ever use their horses), but it's not optimal as solution.

rbodleyscott
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:46 am

Galaahd wrote:Uhm what spears bug?
They are currently getting Spearmen POA when Fragmented which (according to the rules) they shouldn't. This is a bug which did not previously come to light because there are no Spearmen in any of the scenarios or army lists supplied with the game, but it will be corrected in the next update.

Having said that, they are pretty much doomed when Fragmented anyway, so I would not let it delay you.
There is no option to mount / dismount units in Pike & Shot as far as I know, so maybe I could add already dismounted units of knights on foot (and then they can ever use their horses), but it's not optimal as solution.
There can't be many (if any) historical cases of dismounted knights remounting during a battle before the enemy army broke.

However, the dismounting/mounting action could be scripted.
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fogman
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by fogman » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:58 pm

you can't do that in FOG either and that's not a problem. dismounted men-at-arms weren't mechanized infantry. they can't mount and dismount according to tactical situations. their horses would have been with the baggage train, so you would treat them as foot the whole time of the battle.

Galaahd
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by Galaahd » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:08 pm

I assumed they would sometimes mount on their horses again as Michael Mallett mentions it in his famous book "Mercenaries and their masters. Warfare in Renaissance Italy". While speaking of the innovations brought in by the White Company, he says that the horses would stay behind the line of fighting with the squires, but would sometimes be brought forward should the knights need them, either to chase a retreating enemy, or to retreat themselves.

rbodleyscott
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:16 pm

Galaahd wrote:I assumed they would sometimes mount on their horses again as Michael Mallett mentions it in his famous book "Mercenaries and their masters. Warfare in Renaissance Italy". While speaking of the innovations brought in by the White Company, he says that the horses would stay behind the line of fighting with the squires, but would sometimes be brought forward should the knights need them, either to chase a retreating enemy, or to retreat themselves.
Yes, but the point is that by that stage one of the armies has broken, so it does not occur until after the game has finished - so no need to explicitly represent it.
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Galaahd
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Re: Wars of the Condottieri.

Post by Galaahd » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:45 pm

Fair enough.

Even better, as it'd make representing them easier :D

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