Fatigue

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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AlexDetrojan
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Fatigue

Post by AlexDetrojan » Fri May 03, 2019 3:20 pm

How is fatigue portraited in this game? I play a few other digital games(in this era) by other companies(HPS, John Tiller etc.)and fatigue is represented fairly realistically I feel. Are there internal algorithms within the game that portrait this? Just curious.
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Pixel
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Re: Fatigue

Post by Pixel » Sat May 04, 2019 5:23 am

There isn't a discrete fatigue system or mechanic as far as I am aware. It is simply abstracted into overall cohesion and unit quality. In the map based campaigns units can be under strength at the beginning of battles too. A few of the historical scenarios I think tweak unit quality / mark units as demoralized to represent troops that are less then well rested (from a road march before a battle or what not) and or need to be portrayed as less effective for other reasons. The loss of unit effectiveness in the battles themselves is just cohesion, disorder, etc.
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Pixel
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Re: Fatigue

Post by Pixel » Sat May 04, 2019 5:31 am

I guess one could envision a system whereby units that are moved continuously or under enemy fire / melee combat over a number of turns or which charge and pursue get a fatigue designation or token that they can only recover by not being involved in combats / not moving for a number of turns. Presumably, the fatigue token would then effect movement rates or cause disorder type penalties if units continued to move or fight. But, such a system would likely slow down the overall pace of play. Maybe it is something a Pike and Shot sequel could explore. Similarly, the ranges in the game are extended over what might arguably be considered historical effective ranges. Additionally, things like ammunition counts / command and control via leaders are also not explicitly modeled.

Although, Sengoku and FoG II added leaders in the form of Generals attached to units. In FoG II ranged units have a limit on how many turns they can shoot at full effectiveness (expressed in terms of Ammo).
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TheGrayMouser
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Re: Fatigue

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sat May 04, 2019 1:38 pm

AlexDetrojan wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 3:20 pm
How is fatigue portraited in this game? I play a few other digital games(in this era) by other companies(HPS, John Tiller etc.)and fatigue is represented fairly realistically I feel. Are there internal algorithms within the game that portrait this? Just curious.
Cheers
Alex

There is no fatigue modelled period, why would there be secret game mechanics not mentioned in the manual? :)

That being said, one could argue that the unit autobreak feature simulates the "point of no return" for absolute mental and physical exhaustion….

AlexDetrojan
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Re: Fatigue

Post by AlexDetrojan » Sat May 04, 2019 4:57 pm

Good answers all, thanks. Why I ask is that an acquaintance of mine is into historical reenactment of this period. He is a 'piker' and after about an hour of 'fighting' his arms are toast(and he's fairly fit). So I would imagine that with fighting ,poking, slugging and marching, after a full days battle historically, fatigue would have been a serious problem...
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Alex

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Re: Fatigue

Post by StuccoFresco » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:30 am

One of the few missing things of warfare, I concur. Battle fatigue could add much depth to a battle by making having a fresh reserve much more important.

Is there any way to "introduce" it some way? Modding something, i don't know?

SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Fatigue

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:46 am

Fatigue is abstractly modeled already. These were men who marched all day carrying a lot of stuff - marching across 10 'squares' (600 meters) wouldn't wear them out. Fighting is another story, of course, but a lot of units don't engage in much fighting a lot of the time, standing and waiting in the wings or in reserve, or firing at a distance. Finally, even 'melee' is an abstraction. Your reenacting friend gets tired after an hour of 'fighting.' Fair enough. But most of the close fighting would have been a short burst of contact, fencing with pikes and clubbed muskets, before the two sides backed off and engaged in some desultory firing before working up the courage to close again. Or, one side would just run away shortly before or after contact. Units that engage in little combat take few losses. They don't have much of a negative combat modifier, and are likelier to pass cohesion tests. Units engaged in heavy fighting will increasingly be at a disadvantage in both ranged and close combat due to the negative combat strength modifier, and are more likely to fail cohesion tests. Physical exhaustion is one of the factors contained in these effects.

Richard has explained in other threads that he has seen and played wargame rule sets that attempted to model fatigue in a less abstract way, and players just ended up 'gaming' that system in a way that was far more ahistorical than the current set up.

As for ammo, Field of Glory II is modeling an era of warfare in which the battles would generally climax in a ferocious bout of hand to hand fighting along the whole line. Limited ammo mechanics encourage players to gain what advantages they can in the skirmishing phase, and then get stuck in. Pike and shot models the evolution toward linear warfare; limited ammo would emphasize hand to hand fighting more than is probably appropriate. In Pike and Shot, it's generally better to disrupt the enemy with fire before closing in for the kill, which seems right.

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Re: Fatigue

Post by Odenathus » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:53 am

I remember one set of wargames rules claimed that modern studies have shown that fatigue and fear in battle are largely the same, so make of that what you will. I think that SnuggleBunnies is correct in that an attempt to introduce any sort of sliding scale for individual units to model fatigue would encourage some players into making strange moves, or indeed into not moving at all, which can be problem already.

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Re: Fatigue

Post by KiwiWarlord » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:12 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:38 pm
That being said, one could argue that the unit autobreak feature simulates the "point of no return" for absolute mental and physical exhaustion….
The game works fine as it is, I agree with GM that the auto break makes everything that has been discussed so simple and an effective tool in the game.

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Re: Fatigue

Post by Scartabelli » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:14 pm

Pike & Shot could use some improvements but fatigue definitely isn't one of them. It would be hard to balance in a fun way, it could encourage stalling et cetera. Maybe it could be represented somehow in a future installment as a status effect in the campaign mode (if it will be similar in any way to the FoG campaign mod) after making certain decisions like deciding on forced march or something. I don't see much use for it in regular skirmish battles.

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Re: Fatigue

Post by StuccoFresco » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:39 am

Uhm, I believe the current systems sort of simulates battle fatigue through losses/disruption: units that fight for many turns take losses and the risk of being disrupted or worse (I believe) increases proportionally. In the end, it's also fatigue that leads to loss of cohesion, isn't it?

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