Unmovable ships ?

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Athos1660
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Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Wed May 29, 2019 3:52 pm

Hello everybody,

I've just bought the game, was looking at the map editor and made a test : I put ships on deep water tiles. Then I tried the scenario. The ships seem to be unmovable. It was written : "Ship. Deep Waters. Impassable" (see below).

I've already tried with (base + overlay) :
1) Open terrain + Deep water
2) and Water + Deep water.
3) Water only


Is it intended ? Did I miss something ?

Any help would be appreciated. Thx in advance. :-)
(hoping this question hasn't already been discussed...)

Image

Pixel
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Pixel » Thu May 30, 2019 7:58 am

I'm not the game developer/designer but I believe the ships were setup as static props for the Nieuwpoort 1600 (Battle of the Dunes) scenario. They were never implemented as movable objects in the base game because they were designed to represent anchored ships from the Dutch fleet at this battle.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _Fases.jpg

Image

The above engraving from 1649 (admittedly ~50 years on from the battle itself but consistent with other period depictions of the battle) shows the Dutch transports and accompanying warships firing on the advancing Spanish.

Image

This is a different painting of the battle from a Flemish painter painted around ~1640 that also depicts this.

This WarfareHistoryNetwork article explains the situation well: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily ... ieuwpoort/

Maurice was besieging Nieuwpoort in Flanders (rather near Dunkirk. Go check out google maps) his army had come from Flushing (AKA Vlissingen......side note: this is also why there is a Flushing in New York today.....because the Dutch settled it as part of their New Netherlands colony in North America and named it). To get his army south to Ostend he needed a fleet of transports and a few warships to defend them to get across the Scheldt Estuary. The Spanish assembled an army in Ghent while Maurice was besieging Nieupoort and essentially threatened to cut the Dutch off by moving towards Ostend. Maurice having part of his army on the Nieuwpoort side of the Yser tidal estuary had to turn around and go back north of it putting his troops with water at their backs and the Dutch fleet off the coast with not enough time to embark to coordinate a retreat by sea. The fleet was ostensibly positioned in support of siege preparations and to prevent Spanish resupply by trying to approach Nieupoort itself by sea. So it likely wasn't particularly mobile but hard to say as nothing I've read specifically states the warships were at anchor.

It is a classic threatened lines of communication situation. Both armies ended up involved in a nasty fight on the coast and the Dutch Warships whether mobile or anchored supposedly provided supporting fire (the thought here is as stationary gun batteries against some of the Spanish formations advancing on the beach).

TLDR: The game is based on a land battles rule-set (Field of Glory: Renaissance) and thus, the ships are supporting props rather then a fully fleshed out naval module.
Last edited by Pixel on Thu May 30, 2019 8:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Pixel » Thu May 30, 2019 8:04 am

There is the fabulous Lepanto mod that Jomni, the incredible modder and mastermind behind Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun, made that has custom galleys that can move and shoot: viewtopic.php?t=77545

His design notes are available here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/377520/d ... 215557201/
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Thu May 30, 2019 2:36 pm

@ Pixel : Thank you very much for your reply and this interesting piece of History :-)

At that time, ships were certainly often used as stationary gun batteries to bombard troops, forts or cities near the coastline during battles, sieges and landings (while sometimes also repelling enemy naval reinforcement). There are several historical examples, such as the bombardment of Genoa in 1684. Having unmovable ships in Pike and Shot is thus logical.

I guess movable ships would be most useful in naval battles and troop landings.

As you mentioned, there’s also the Lepanto mod that is indeed great !
Unfortunately I haven’t succeeded in editing it to make my own (smaller) maps. I guess it’s impossible.
Pixel wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:58 am
TLDR: The game is based on a land battles rule-set (Field of Glory: Renaissance) and thus, the ships are supporting props rather then a fully fleshed out naval module.
As a newcomer to the game, I will certainly trust your experience.

However, I wonder if invasion scenarios (mixing bombardments by (say unmovable) ships, troop landings (ie slow troop ships "becoming" troops when hitting the coast) and current land battles) and naval fight ones (between movable galleys, ships of the line…) couldn’t be added to this very kind of turn-based tactical game some day.

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Paul59 » Thu May 30, 2019 8:45 pm

Athos1660 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:36 pm
As you mentioned, there’s also the Lepanto mod that is indeed great !
Unfortunately I haven’t succeeded in editing it to make my own (smaller) maps. I guess it’s impossible.
It is not impossible!

The Lepanto scenarios can be edited the same as any other scenario. Just open the mod in the Editor, and select New Scenario. You can then build a new map and add the ships that are in the Lepanto mod.

Alternatively, you can open one of the two Lepanto scenarios and Resize the map.

My Field of Glory 2 Scenario Creation Guides might be useful:

viewforum.php?f=491

The FOG2 Editor is very similar to the Pike and Shot Editor.
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 8:45 pm
It is not impossible!

The Lepanto scenarios can be edited the same as any other scenario. Just open the mod in the Editor, and select New Scenario. You can then build a new map and add the ships that are in the Lepanto mod.
Thx for your help :-)

More specifically, I did edit the Lepanto scenarios (as I did with other scenarios) and built and saved new maps with ships from the Lepanto mod, but, oddly, unlike the other maps I created from other scenarios, I've never been able find them to play them after clicking on the Lepanto scenario (in the Historical scenarios)...

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Paul59 » Thu May 30, 2019 11:02 pm

Athos1660 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 8:45 pm
It is not impossible!

The Lepanto scenarios can be edited the same as any other scenario. Just open the mod in the Editor, and select New Scenario. You can then build a new map and add the ships that are in the Lepanto mod.
Thx for your help :-)

More specifically, I did edit the Lepanto scenarios (as I did with other scenarios) and built and saved new maps with ships from the Lepanto mod, but, oddly, unlike the other maps I created from other scenarios, I've never been able find them to play them after clicking on the Lepanto scenario (in the Historical scenarios)...
If you create a new scenario within the Lepanto mod it should be sitting with the existing two Lepanto scenarios (the first is played as Holy League, the second as Ottoman Empire). So to find it in the menu you would select Lepanto from the scenario list, then when the Lepanto mod loads click the right hand arrow button to scroll through the scenarios until you find your new one.

If you have already tried that, I don't know what to suggest, you could maybe send me the scenario folder (without all the Data folder, as that is a lot to send) so that I could examine it for you.
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Fri May 31, 2019 9:44 am

Paul59 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:02 pm
If you create a new scenario within the Lepanto mod it should be sitting with the existing two Lepanto scenarios (the first is played as Holy League, the second as Ottoman Empire). So to find it in the menu you would select Lepanto from the scenario list, then when the Lepanto mod loads click the right hand arrow button to scroll through the scenarios until you find your new one.
That's what I did ! In the Lepanto scenario list, there are only the two mod scenarios (Holy League and Ottoman Empire). My own maps don't appear.
I did the same with Fleurus. My maps appear in the scenario list and are playable...

My Lepanto maps are saved here : ...Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\LEPANTO_V1.1\SCENARIOS
My Fleurus maps are saved here : ...Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\FLEURUS\SCENARIOS

:-)

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Paul59 » Fri May 31, 2019 11:08 am

Athos1660 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:44 am
Paul59 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:02 pm
If you create a new scenario within the Lepanto mod it should be sitting with the existing two Lepanto scenarios (the first is played as Holy League, the second as Ottoman Empire). So to find it in the menu you would select Lepanto from the scenario list, then when the Lepanto mod loads click the right hand arrow button to scroll through the scenarios until you find your new one.
That's what I did ! In the Lepanto scenario list, there are only the two mod scenarios (Holy League and Ottoman Empire). My own maps don't appear.
I did the same with Fleurus. My maps appear in the scenario list and are playable...

My Lepanto maps are saved here : ...Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\LEPANTO_V1.1\SCENARIOS
My Fleurus maps are saved here : ...Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\FLEURUS\SCENARIOS

:-)
I think I have seen what the problem is.

Jomni has listed the scenarios in the CAMPAIGN.TXT file. If you open that file it says this:

NOSKIRMISH
LOCK 00000000

VAR BreakPoint1
VAR BreakPoint2

[Lepanto]
[Lepanto1]

This is limiting the game to reading only those scenarios. So you will need to add your scenario at the end of the list. For instance:

NOSKIRMISH
LOCK 00000000

VAR BreakPoint1
VAR BreakPoint2

[Lepanto]
[Lepanto1]
[Your_Scenario_Name]

I'm not sure why jomni has done it like this, I don't think it is necessary for Pike and Shot, although it is usual for FOG 2.

I have not tested this myself, as I have not had the time, but I think this must be why your scenario is not showing up.
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Fri May 31, 2019 11:34 am

@Paul59 : It works ! Thank you so much for you time, kindness and expertise. :-)

This may be of interest to other persons using the Lepanto mod !

btw do you think it is possible to replace the current CAMPAIGN.TXT of the Lepanto mod with one containing only "NOSKIRMISH" like the Fleurus CAMPAIGN.TXT ? I guess I can try. Or is there some kind of copyright (or 'habit'), meaning I shouldn't change a file of the Lepanto mod ? Or wouldn't it work ? It is a bit tedious to add/delete a map in the CAMPAIGN.TXT each time one creates/deletes one.

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Paul59 » Fri May 31, 2019 6:34 pm

Athos1660 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 11:34 am
@Paul59 : It works ! Thank you so much for you time, kindness and expertise. :-)

This may be of interest to other persons using the Lepanto mod !

btw do you think it is possible to replace the current CAMPAIGN.TXT of the Lepanto mod with one containing only "NOSKIRMISH" like the Fleurus CAMPAIGN.TXT ? I guess I can try. Or is there some kind of copyright (or 'habit'), meaning I shouldn't change a file of the Lepanto mod ? Or wouldn't it work ? It is a bit tedious to add/delete a map in the CAMPAIGN.TXT each time one creates/deletes one.
I don't see why you can't delete the references to the scenarios in the CAMPAIGN.txt, but leave all the other text.

If it is just for private use, you can do anything you want. But if you were going to post any new scenarios for the community to download it would be good form to send a pm to jomni to ask his permission.

good luck!


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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:07 am

Paul59 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:34 pm
I don't see why you can't delete the references to the scenarios in the CAMPAIGN.txt, but leave all the other text.

If it is just for private use, you can do anything you want. But if you were going to post any new scenarios for the community to download it would be good form to send a pm to jomni to ask his permission.

good luck!

Paul
Thanks for everything :-)

It is fun to play around with creating maps from the Lepanto mod, adding, for example, an island that ships have to bypass to meet and fight or an harbor galleys have to leave before reaching enemies.

The Lepanto mod has only naval units (galleys and galleass). If it is within my capabilities, I'll try to learn how to mix land and naval units on the same map, maybe using the land units of the vanilla P&S game and the naval units of the Lepanto mod (?).

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Paul59 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:26 am

Athos1660 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:07 am
Paul59 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:34 pm
I don't see why you can't delete the references to the scenarios in the CAMPAIGN.txt, but leave all the other text.

If it is just for private use, you can do anything you want. But if you were going to post any new scenarios for the community to download it would be good form to send a pm to jomni to ask his permission.

good luck!

Paul
Thanks for everything :-)

It is fun to play around with creating maps from the Lepanto mod, adding, for example, an island that ships have to bypass to meet and fight or an harbor galleys have to leave before reaching enemies.

The Lepanto mod has only naval units (galleys and galleass). If it is within my capabilities, I'll try to learn how to mix land and naval units on the same map, maybe using the land units of the vanilla P&S game and the naval units of the Lepanto mod (?).
That is quite easy. All you have to do is add the lines from the vanilla Squads.csv file to the Lepanto mod Squads.csv file.

The only complication is that jomni has numbered his ships in the Lepanto Squads.csv file 0 to 14. Therefore if you want to use any of the vanilla land units that are numbered 0 to 14 you would have to renumber them to use any unused number.

It might be easier to add the entire vanilla Squads.csv file to the Lepanto Squads.csv file. Then renumber all of jomni's ships to use the numbers 300 to 314. Then change the IDS_UNITNAME and IDS_UNITINFO numbers in the Lepanto Text1.txt to match.
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Paul59 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:51 am

Actually, on second thoughts, I wonder if jomni has made any changes to the Lepanto game scripts that might prevent land units working?

It might be a good idea to contact him and ask.
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:46 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:51 am
Actually, on second thoughts, I wonder if jomni has made any changes to the Lepanto game scripts that might prevent land units working?

It might be a good idea to contact him and ask.
At first glance, it seems to work ! But I'm a newcomer to the game, so I am not sure about the behavior of the units... I will contact jomni. I'll make some tests in the meantime.

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:02 pm

The battle of Solent (July 1545)
An interesting use of the galleys

This battle is an unsuccessful attempt to invade England made by the French that took place during the Italian Wars.

The French used their galleys as "skirmishers" (or as a kind of naval "Forlorn hope") against the immobile English vessels to harass them and try to cause a breach in them to attempt a landing :
Image
in Gabriel Daniel, Histoire de la milice française, 1721

Image caption : in the background of the picture, Portsmouth (A). In front, the English fleet (B) and the attacking French galleys (C). In the foreground, the French vessels (D).

Here is another view with the French in the left hand side and the English fleet on the right. At the centre, the French galleys attacking and the sinking of the Mary Rose, an English carrack-type warship and the flagship of the fleet :

Image

The centre section of the engraving with the French galleys and the Mary Rose :
Image

Later, the invasion was abandoned.

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Pixel » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:57 am

It is super cool that they managed to raise / salvage the Mary Rose too: https://maryrose.org/recovering-the-ship/

Also I like this guy's youtube channel......thehistoryguy....he also so happens to have done a episode about the Mary Rose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJorEFeox9s

The naval artillery was very valuable and they wanted/attempted to recover it back in the day after the battle (without any modern diving equipment).
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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Cronos09 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:45 am

The ships in P&S can move on the Deep Water tiles (after adding them AP points and Speed in SQUADS.csv)

Image

Image

If you would like them to move on the Water tiles you should change their type from 'Ship' to 'Boat' in SQUADS.csv

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Athos1660 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:29 am

@Cronos09 : very interesting ! Thank you !!! I will try (as soon as I have more time for it...).

It'll be particularly interesting to tweak the number of squares sailing ships will be able to move per turn (something I already wondered when playing with the map editor and jomni's galleys). I guess SPEED in SQUADS.csv is made for that (I do need to look at the modding guides first ;-).

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Re: Unmovable ships ?

Post by Cronos09 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:18 pm

The number of AP points corresponds to the range (the number of squares on which the ship can move). Moving along water/deep water tiles corresponds to moving a unit on an open ground - 1 square in a straight line - 4 AP, 1 square in a diagonal line - 6 AP.

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