WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

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dadrunk
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WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:26 pm

Hi.

I have in mind since the release of this game to create a mod which takes the gameplay as close as possible to the original Wh40K TT.

I want to know if you think my ideas are good.

I will try to explain everything that will change in this ( future ) mod, and i need your advice for a lot of thing.

==========================================================================================================

1) Movement, Range

Image

In this example you can see the changes on the distance.
Lasergun has 24 Inches of range represented by 8 hex.
The typical movement of the infantry is 0-6 inches, represented by 1 or 2 hex.

I will create a new style of Close combat. Units will be in close combat when they are at 1 Hex.
I will do a major change on close combat, all weapons will have a minimum range of 2.

In the example on the top, the marines and the imperial guards will not be able to use their bolter/lasergun. I will create a special " CC weapon" which will represent the Close combat characteristic of each unit.

Of course, there are some weapons that unit can use in close combat, i will give them a minimum range of 0. ( same Range as CC Weapon )

2) Characteristic

I did some changes on characteristic to match with the official rule.

Here is the example of the Ranged accuracy dependings on the " CT " of units.

CT 1 : 17
CT 2 : 33
CT 3 : 50
CT 4 : 67
CT 5+ : 83

Example for the others characteristic :

A Tactical squad of Space Marine has a endurance of 4. There Defense will be 40 in the game.
A bolter has a force of 4, The power attack of the weapon will be 40 in the game.


3 )Of course, all the cost points, and max number strengh for unity will be change.

==============================================================================================================================

Now, i need to show you the problem i have.

1) First problem : Initiative

In the game when an unit attacks one others with range weapon, the unit with the bigger initiative attacks first.
I want to delete that thing, i tried to put an initiative of 1 for forcing the attack unit to fire first in every case, but i don't know if it works, and it if works it will be a problem for close combat. Because i want the initiative thing for close combat.

2) Second problem : Armor save of units, and Penetration Power of weapons.

Here is the BIG problem.

I don't really know how to deal with it.

I need to represent the armor save for unit. I found a great solution which worked on test : add an amount of endurance for each unit depending on their armor save.

Exemple :

A space marine has 40 in endurance.
His armor save is 4+, so his real endurance will be 45.
It works well because when you have a 4+ armor save, you have 50/100 chance of saving your unit. So why not add 50/100 of a point of endurance. ( It's like that the space marine endurance is 4,5 on TT )

By following this rule, others example :

Armor Save 6+ : +1 Endurance
Armor Save 5+ : +3 Endurance
Armor Save 4+ : +5 Endurance
Armor Save 3+ : +7 Endurance
Armor Save 2+ : +9 Endurance

But the problem is this : Armor Penetration

It don't really match with the previous rule.
I was thinking of something like this :

PA 5 : -10%
PA 4 : -15%

Infact it matchs with one example.

An imperial guard has 5+ in armor save, and an endurance of 3.
So his real endurance ingame will be 33. ( 30+3 )

Now if a space marine with a bolter ( with a PA of 5 ) shoots him.
His endurance will be 33-10%: 30

But i know it works well with just this example.

=================================================================================

If you have others ideas, just tell me.

I will have a loooot of work to do what i really want.

The other BIIIIIG problem will be ... the vehicule.


PS : Sorry for the possible big mistake in english ...

Caveman
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by Caveman » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:42 pm

I like the Idea of editing the rules of the game closer to the TT. My advise would be to do the easy things first and don't go all to crazy. A shooting-range over so many hexes... close combat will be a very rare event.

What about implementing the "walk short and shoot" or "walk long and don't shoot"-rule from the TT. That would add a nice, warm TT-feeling to it. I wouldn't increase the movement much, let's say 2 hexes and shooting or 4 and no shooting for infantry - like in your example. I'm sure there are other little things which can be improved first.

dadrunk
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:52 pm

Caveman wrote:I like the Idea of editing the rules of the game closer to the TT. My advise would be to do the easy things first and don't go all to crazy. A shooting-range over so many hexes... close combat will be a very rare event.
I want this too, but apparently you cant modify the rule of the game :/

For the distance, it seems crazy in the example, but infact it's the same as the TT. We just need to make custom map to make the terrain more playable.

TheGrayMouser
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:01 pm

Very interesting idea. I think it would work as long as you kept the scale of any custom maps reasonable. (ie too big and it will be brutal moving units w 2 movement points around)

Some ideas: the amount of cover and LOS blocked appears to be be editable. With the major reduction in ground scale you propose, I think a lot could be fiddled with make it feel a more tactical game.

One thing might seem odd though in such a scale, would be the inability of units to "react" unless they themselves are fired upon. I recall Final Liberation (and of course games like steel panthers) had opportunity fire or "overwatch fire". Now if you gave most (all?) units the support attribute you could simulate that to some degree.

Joubarbe
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by Joubarbe » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:09 pm

Hmm I'm not the only working on a Table Top mod... Let the competition begins ! :)

dadrunk
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:49 pm

Joubarbe wrote:Hmm I'm not the only working on a Table Top mod... Let the competition begins ! :)
No dude, we should collaborate. There is a looot of work to do.

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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by Joubarbe » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:05 pm

I'll come with a "showcase" probably during the next week. That will include a custom testing scenario, scouts, tactical squads, assault squads, dreadnoughts, bike squads, land raiders, stormravens, gretchins, burna boyz, tank bustaz, deff dreads, warbuggies, battlewagons and deffkoptaz. Maybe I'll include a Character too (squads of 5 Weirdboyz ?! come on...).

It will be experimental, but a start for a conversation about the TT experience. I already did Scouts and Tactical Squads. I'll explain all my rules lata' in that showcase.

dadrunk
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:20 am

Hi everyone

Just a quick note to told you that i finnally found the way to simulate the armor save ( and cover save too ), the same for the PA armor of weapons.

For example the endurance of a Space marine is now : 85 ( 3+ armor Save )
For an imperial guard it's 45 ( 5+ armor save )

The simulation combat with different weapons shows the same result as Roll Dice by following the Wh40K Rules.


( edit : humm i need to make more test to confirm it really work )

-----------------------

I guess i will have a problem, did the defense of unit is limited to 100 or not ?

For exemple :

Imperial guard : defense : 45
Space Marine : defense : 85
Terminator : defense : 240

( that seems pretty huge, but that seems work too )
An example with a canon laser, the defense of a terminator will be reduced to 40 because he will lose his armor save )


Some exemple :

1) A unit with 4 in Defense, with an armor save 3+ AND a cover save of 5+ ( if he is in woods per exemple ) will have a defense of : 140
2) A unit with 4 in defense with an armor save 2+ AND a cover save of 3+ ( Buildings ) will have a defense of : 320
3) A unit with 4 defense with just an armor save 3+ will have a defense of : 120

On these 3 examples, if an ennemi shoots with a bolter, he will have these chance to kill the unit :

1) 14.29% to kill
2) 6.25% to kill
3) 16.68% to kill


I will need time to see if it can works, i will do a lot of test today.
I'm not in front of my main computer, so there just math, i don't really know if defense can be superior than 100. If not, i guess i will divided all the characteristic per 10.

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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by Joubarbe » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:20 am

Defense can be superior to 100. For the AP, I use a percentage system, to add to the defense :

Armor save 1+ 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6
% Defense added 80 64 48 32 16 0

So a bolter removes 16% of the target's defense. It gives a more tactical use of high AP weapons and most importantly, it will give the infantry a serious chance to destroy vehicles (otherwise, the attack-defense efficiency would be imbalanced).

I developed a tiny program in which you enter codex informations, and all the work is done in the .whdat files. I think that could save us a lot of time.

Image

bram1979
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by bram1979 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:58 am

Joubarbe wrote: Image
I think it is great you guys are trying to bring the TT to the virtual setting. Working together is I think the better solution. 2 minds work beter than 1 :mrgreen:

@Joubarbe: could you sent the file over?

I have a tournament in mind based on the Grand Tournament and TT. I'l wait for you guys to finish and fine tune the units till I'll go any further.
A suggestion from my side: for the real WAAAAAAAAAGH experience you could lower the Nobs defence rating to 20 or so? And make them a bit less strong. If SM and IG are going to be a bit stronger it would be cool to shoot up loads of Orks :lol:

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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by Joubarbe » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:11 pm

The tool is not finished yet. It will follow some rules I made, and that's not going to be customizable. A TT mod must observe the same rule for every unit, so the thing you say about Nobs will fine tune itself, regarding Codex values... in theory :) That's why it's experimental.

bram1979
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by bram1979 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:19 pm

Of course if you stick to the Codices all be great. Do you have all current Codices? (I have all digital versions)

dadrunk
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:42 pm

Joubarbe wrote:Defense can be superior to 100. For the AP, I use a percentage system, to add to the defense :

Armor save 1+ 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6
% Defense added 80 64 48 32 16 0

So a bolter removes 16% of the target's defense. It gives a more tactical use of high AP weapons and most importantly, it will give the infantry a serious chance to destroy vehicles (otherwise, the attack-defense efficiency would be imbalanced).

I developed a tiny program in which you enter codex informations, and all the work is done in the .whdat files. I think that could save us a lot of time.

Image
Nice but do you think your percentage are good ?
in my case i find this :

6§+: 20%
5+ : 50%
4+ : 100%
3+¨:200%
2+ : 500%

TheGrayMouser
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:51 pm

Good stuff guys, Just curious, how are you going to handle unit spotting (Currently most units can spot 2-3 hexes) Are you going to increase spotting for all units to the maximun weapon range?
Cheers!

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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by Joubarbe » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:20 pm

@dadrunk : well, I don't get your percentage ; when you calculate a save in War40k, you throw a dice, so that's 100/6, rounded to inferior. That's a chance of avoiding completely a shot, but there are many rules that lead me to just add a % to the defense of the unit, to influence the attack efficiency (attack-defense) and add more chances of deflecting a shot.

@TheGrayMouser : currently, I have a very simple rule : infantry have 5, vehicles have 4, aircrafts have 6. It needs some tests to experiment this.

bram1979
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by bram1979 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:36 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:Good stuff guys, Just curious, how are you going to handle unit spotting
How about scouts/scouting units get the best spotting range?

dadrunk
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:49 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:Good stuff guys, Just curious, how are you going to handle unit spotting (Currently most units can spot 2-3 hexes) Are you going to increase spotting for all units to the maximun weapon range?
Cheers!
i will delete the FOW

You dont have FOW when you play wh40k

dadrunk
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:26 pm

For the previous Armor Save i did, i think i'm wrong. It's too much.

My calcul was wrong.

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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by Joubarbe » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:44 pm

Removing the FOW is in my opinion a bad idea.

1/ You have an option to do so in Armageddon.
2/ Even if this is more TT experience, don't forget that we are on a computer videogame, and that's the FOW cannot be managed on a tabletop game. No FOW will mean absolute carnage, because with the new firing ranges, every piece of artillery will be able to shoot at everyone. With the FOW however, you need to scout before firing. And that's the TT feeling.

@bram1979 : I thought of that, adding more spotting to scouts. But Scouts are NOT a weak unit in War40k, especially with sniper rifles, as they have in the game. Flying units will serve as scouts, I think. Again, I finish my tool, convert a dozen of units, then upload a scenario for you guys to test. Now my tool handles the graphics of weapons (Graphics\attack.whdat) ; you click on the image, and the Offsets are automatically set. And that's cool !
Last edited by Joubarbe on Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dadrunk
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Re: WH 40 K TableTop Experience Mod

Post by dadrunk » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:46 pm

Can someone tell me how works the Attack efficency roll ?

If i have an attack efficiency of -24% what this means compared to a basic dice roll ?

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