Fog of War

A place to discuss the upcoming hex-based Civil War simulation from Shenandoah Studio
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Ironclad
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Fog of War

Post by Ironclad » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:28 am

I was disappointed that the game doesn't have FOW, even as an option. I don't know if this was always intended to replicate a board game view or was forced because of the programming difficulties but it does detract from play possibilities especially for a battle like Gettysburg where knowledge of unit placements, arrivals and movements are so critical. I take it therefore that the line of sight considerations re terrain features are for firing purposes only.

IainMcNeil
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Re: Fog of War

Post by IainMcNeil » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:24 am

Yes LoS is related to firing, mainly for artillery.

The game rules are directly adapted from the board game. I'd need to talk to the team about what would be involved in adding FoW. It might be possible for human players but could be tricky for the AI. Thanks for the suggestion.

Twinkle
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Re: Fog of War

Post by Twinkle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:30 am

IainMcNeil wrote:The game rules are directly adapted from the board game. I'd need to talk to the team about what would be involved in adding FoW. It might be possible for human players but could be tricky for the AI. Thanks for the suggestion.
In my not so humble opinion. Shouldn't be a suggestion at this stage but done long time ago.

Capitaine
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Re: Fog of War

Post by Capitaine » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:04 pm

I don't believe the other Shenandoah games have FOW, do they? These Ipad type games are more games than high detail simulations. That has been my impression of this line.

As such, I'm not as critical on "realism issues" as I am with full-on battle sims. Am I misunderstanding what kind of game this is?

mboog12
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Re: Fog of War

Post by mboog12 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:27 pm

adding such a feature late in development would've definitely affected the whole game : balacing wise, programming, testing.
from a programming pov it's not rocket science to add fow.

Twinkle
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Re: Fog of War

Post by Twinkle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:28 pm

Capitaine wrote:I don't believe the other Shenandoah games have FOW, do they? These Ipad type games are more games than high detail simulations. That has been my impression of this line.

As such, I'm not as critical on "realism issues" as I am with full-on battle sims. Am I misunderstanding what kind of game this is?
This is not a Ipad game, but a PC game coded in C# and Unity. FoW is eazy peazy to have for hotseat/pbem and the human player even if AI cheat and see all enemies. Anyway, just something I think ought to be part of it. Also the scale is very different to Road to Moscow and Battle of Bulge where additionally most enemy units of size is spotted by recon airplanes. Anyway, only my opinion and as always missguided from trying to play as good strategy games as possible.

Capitaine
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Re: Fog of War

Post by Capitaine » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:41 pm

The pricing of the game at $9.99 suggests otherwise to me, even if this initial version is on the PC at the moment. I expect tablet versions to follow. A real full scale sim of Gettysburg on the PC would be in the $40-$50 range.

I'm not necessarily against FOW, I'm just cognizant of the class of game that has been developed by Shenandoah to this point.

mboog12
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Re: Fog of War

Post by mboog12 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:00 pm

Capitaine, you're absolutely right. I couldn't express it better.

Theopolis
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Re: Fog of War

Post by Theopolis » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:21 pm

The battle was fought in an area of roughly 17 sq miles (3.33 x5.33 miles). Without radios, runners would have to travel on ground to relay all spotted positions to all units. If they survive the trips, the information would be obsolete by the time it is received because the spotted will probably have moved by then. Even if only nearby units can get this information, the nature of the game makes it impossible for unintended units to know the enemy locations, since all units are controlled by a single player. A unit in the rear will act on information it shouldn't have, and that would make programming fog of war a waste of time, and even detrimental to the application itself. The one thing that cannot be changed is that this is a digitally rendered board game, and you cannot hide cardboard counters on a map.

Ironclad
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Re: Fog of War

Post by Ironclad » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:00 pm

The game is great value at the current price and I'd have no problem in paying extra for a package of added features including FOW. Whilst I acccept that its original non PC conception probably imposed restrictions I would hope that it could be enhanced in the future if there is the demand and provided its unique programming difficulties are manageable. Board games that convert to PC often use the opportunities allowed by that medium to introduce changes that weren't available in the original format.

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Re: Fog of War

Post by Curious » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:50 am

I'd pay extra for realistic fog of war.

Twinkle
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Re: Fog of War

Post by Twinkle » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:33 am

Capitaine wrote:The pricing of the game at $9.99 suggests otherwise to me, even if this initial version is on the PC at the moment. I expect tablet versions to follow. A real full scale sim of Gettysburg on the PC would be in the $40-$50 range.
How could the most essential part of a computer game as compared to a boardgame not be a planed part of a full Gettysburg game? No matter if it is for tablet or PC use. Anyway, it is only my own opinion and all to their own. 8) And end of discussion for my part,

uxbridge
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Re: Fog of War

Post by uxbridge » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:54 pm

Side with those who wish for a FoW system for PBEM-play. If this is the first game in a series of battles, this feature must be seriously considered. A lot of generalship in this period were guessing and out-guessing; having FoW in the game would add immensely to the PBEM-battles.

That said, just as FoW can be a good thing, sometimes it can also be the opposite. I have played many games where an enemy's presence became apparent only just prior to him starting to crawl into my pants. So if done, beware of Jack-in-the-Box effects.

My prefered solution, if FoW is to be a reality, would be something like:

1. Enemy unit in view of any friendly unit would be seen fully 1-5 hexes away, seen but only as question mark 6-10 hexes away, and not at all beyond that.
2. Enemy unit NOT in view of any friendly unit would be seen fully 1-2 hexes away, seen but only as question mark 3-4 hexes away, and not at all beyond 5 hexes.

Above numbers are only a suggestion, but even technically unseen units should not have the ability to pop up and attack at seconds notice.

This way, the operational hide and seek beyond the eye of the enemy can develop with all intrinsic suspense, without having absurd situations developing in the actual combat line.

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Re: Fog of War

Post by pzgndr » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:25 pm

uxbridge wrote: That said, just as FoW can be a good thing, sometimes it can also be the opposite. I have played many games where an enemy's presence became apparent only just prior to him starting to crawl into my pants. So if done, beware of Jack-in-the-Box effects.
My prefered solution, if FoW is to be a reality, would be something like:
1. Enemy unit in view of any friendly unit would be seen fully 1-5 hexes away, seen but only as question mark 6-10 hexes away, and not at all beyond that.
2. Enemy unit NOT in view of any friendly unit would be seen fully 1-2 hexes away, seen but only as question mark 3-4 hexes away, and not at all beyond 5 hexes.
+1

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