Free France Campaign

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bru888
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

bru888 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:28 pm 3. That link to another OOB at Avalanche Press is handy. Yes, I have found discrepancies in such matters on Wikipedia but, when all else fails, I go with what it has (or make stuff up). This OOB will help me sort matters out.
Hmmm. I'll take that back.

That Avalanche Press article says this about the German 305th Infantry Division (pertaining to a boardgame):

Image0369.jpg
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but Atkinson makes no such reference, and Wikipedia's OOB says they were on the other coast:

Image0370.jpg
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To make matters more confusing, the Wikipedia article about the division says it was destroyed in 1943! (Granted, the article is incomplete.):

Image0371.jpg
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Maybe it was reconstituted by 1944. Who knows. Well, I'll do my best; the result will be plausible, I think. I doubt anybody will be in a position to argue! :)
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uzbek2012
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by uzbek2012 »

bru888 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:06 pm
bru888 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:28 pm 3. That link to another OOB at Avalanche Press is handy. Yes, I have found discrepancies in such matters on Wikipedia but, when all else fails, I go with what it has (or make stuff up). This OOB will help me sort matters out.
Hmmm. I'll take that back.

That Avalanche Press article says this about the German 305th Infantry Division (pertaining to a boardgame):


Image0369.jpg


but Atkinson makes no such reference, and Wikipedia's OOB says they were on the other coast:


Image0370.jpg


To make matters more confusing, the Wikipedia article about the division says it was destroyed in 1943! (Granted, the article is incomplete.):


Image0371.jpg


Maybe it was reconstituted by 1944. Who knows. Well, I'll do my best; the result will be plausible, I think. I doubt anybody will be in a position to argue! :)
Alas Wikipedia is not the most reliable source almost anyone can edit and imagine anything )
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

Elsewhere, one guy is talking about "Kampfgruppe Bode" and "Kampfgruppe Ruffin" without defining what they are ("A Kampfgruppe could range in size from a company to a corp") and he is the only guy talking about them. :roll:

Ach du lieber! Time to cut the Gordian Knot! :x
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uzbek2012
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by uzbek2012 »

bru888 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:42 pm Elsewhere, one guy is talking about "Kampfgruppe Bode" and "Kampfgruppe Ruffin" without defining what they are ("A Kampfgruppe could range in size from a company to a corp") and he is the only guy talking about them. :roll:

Ach du lieber! Time to cut the Gordian Knot! :x

How could the 305th Infantry division be in France or Italy if it surrendered at Stalingrad ))
http://stalingradrus.narod.ru/sg6305id.html

Here they are who did not die )
https://waralbum.ru/67295/

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/cyrilsh/vse ... 00afe1ad64

Armored formations, units and units of the " Fighting France»
http://tankfront.ru/france/units-FFL.html

P.s. We've been hit by morons from all over Europe :D
https://en.topwar.ru/90066-evropeyskie- ... oraya.html
Last edited by uzbek2012 on Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
bru888
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

Oddly, Rick Atkinson, the author of the Liberation Trilogy, does have the 305th Infantry Division in the region but too far north and east for our purposes. Maybe the division was rebuilt by 1944.

Atkinson map.jpg
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ColonelY
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by ColonelY »

Damn, indeed it's rather confusing. :?

From this "Under construction" wiki webpage: ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/305th_Inf ... Wehrmacht) )

Quote from section "Chronology​": "Last units of the 305th see action on 1 February 1943 near the tractor factory in the North Sector of Stalingrad."

Quote from previous section "Battle of Stalingrad​": "The remnants of the Division surrendered in the northern kessel on 2 February 1943. Under Construction"

=> These two quotes are coherent together!

Quote from section after "Chrronology", namely "War crimes​": "The division has been implicated in a number of war crimes in Italy between October 1943 and April 1945, with up to twelve civilians executed in each incident."

Hem... :?

It starts by being written that "This division was present at the Battle of Stalingrad, the Battle of Monte Cassino, and surrendered to U.S. Army's 88th Infantry Division in Northern Italy near Trento in late April 1945."

*******

:arrow: This division might indeed have been rebuilt, as we can find this as well, from other sources (in French -> Ctrl + F and write 305 for quick answer):

https://groups.google.com/g/fr.soc.hist ... fspY8Pikfg -> July 1942: The 305th Infantry Division was with the 6th German Army of General Friedrich Paulus (who indeed surrendered at Stalingrad later)...

https://groups.google.com/g/fr.soc.hist ... AuyegMyQHE -> January 1944: Some 305th Infantry Division was indeed back in Italy...
ColonelY
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by ColonelY »

By the way, this does seem plausible:

"The Hitler Line was a German defensive line in central Italy during the Second World War. The strong points of the line were at Aquino and Piedimonte. In May 1944, the line was renamed the Senger Line, after General von Senger und Etterlin, one of the generals commanding Axis forces in the area. This was done at Hitler's insistence, in order to minimise any propaganda significance should the line be penetrated." :lol: :wink:

(From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Line )
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by ColonelY »

bru888 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:05 pm [...] Maybe the division was rebuilt by 1944.


:!: FOUND: 8)

"[...] She then intervened in the city of Stalingrad from October 14, 1942, where it took part in the capture of the Dzerzhinsky tractor factory and then in the very hard fighting in the Barricade arms factory. With the rest of the VI. Armee, it was locked up in the city by the Soviet counter-attack on November 19, 1942 and capitulated on February 2, 1943.

The unit was reformed in March 1943 in Brittany, France, then left in April for the north between Amiens and Boulogne.
It was transferred to the South of France near Nice in May to relieve the 4th Italian army before intervening in Italy in August 1943 with Heeresgruppe B.

It suffered heavy losses in January 1944 in the Rome sector.
It was replenished several times with personnel from other infantry divisions and fought in northern Italy, ending up near Bologna in January 1945. It surrendered at the end of the war in the Po region.
[...]"

Translated from http://dictionnaire.sensagent.leparisie ... ne)/fr-fr/

That's why it's written on this page:
"Period:
December 15, 1940-February 2, 1943 - March 1943-May 1945"
bru888
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

That resolves the 305th. Still not a factor for us. As for the rest of the German OOB:
bru888 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:42 pm Ach du lieber! Time to cut the Gordian Knot! :x
It's cut. And dried. :)

A number of times, I have found excellent maps at a blog called "Hyperwar" that is hosted on a web service called ibiblio.org. The latest one, for Operation Diadem, I found here: https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/US ... ino-5.html

The map on that page is huge; I shrunk it 50% to show it here (I also used it as my scenario template):

Operation Diadem 1.jpg
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If you look carefully (follow the link if you cannot see), that fellow's German unit designations match Atkinson's on his map of the Hitler Line:

Operation Diadem 2.jpg
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So from this, I am taking these six German divisions as follows, from north to south:
- 1st Parachute Division
- 90th Panzergrenadier Division
- 26th Panzer Division
- 15th Panzergrenadier Division
- 94th Infantry Division
- 29th Panzergrenadier Division

Only the first four fit on the Gustav Line, which is shorter than the Hitler Line (the portion on my Operation Diadem scenario map, that is; actually, the Gustav Line stretched across Italy). These four divisions will swing like a gate that is pushed backward toward the Hitler Line with Cassino as the hinge. As for the other two divisions, I have a special purpose for the 94th Infantry Division down in the Gaeta area, and the 29th PzG Division will be waiting on the Hitler Line (they were in reserve, anyway)

Now, there were other German forces in the area and, for the purposes of balanced gameplay, I have to make some effort to include them. According to the "Hyperwar" article, "the 90th Panzer Grenadier Division, which since the 16th had replaced the battered 44th Infantry Division ..." so I will include the 44th, perhaps in a depleted fashion in the rear. Same for the 71st Infantry Division because "the 26th Panzer Division, which Kesselring had ordered to replace the battered 71st Division ..."

That leaves, from Wikipedia's Operation Diadem OOB, the 5th Mountain Division and the 114th Jäger Division as being on the Winter Line and the 1st Paratroop Panzer Division 'Hermann Göring' as being in reserve. I need at least two of these units for balanced gameplay.

I will leave out the 114th Jäger Division. According to another Wikipedia article, "The division was transferred to Italy in January 1944, to reinforce the Anzio front. It was destroyed in combat in that theater in April 1945."

I have seen reference to the 5th Mountain as being in the area, in the mountains west of Cassino (close enough), and according to Wikipedia, "After the start of the Allied offensive, Operation Diadem, on 12 May, the ['Hermann Göring'] division retreated towards Rome and then abandoned the city." Well, in this version, they hang around. They are interesting.

- 44th Infantry Division (depleted)
- 71st Infantry Division (depleted)
- 5th Mountain Division
- 1st Paratroop Panzer Division 'Hermann Göring'

There you are. 10 German divisions, 8 full strength and 2 depleted. They are facing 14 Allied divisions. Realistic enough as to relative strength (although there will be German foxholes, bunkers, mines, and a roving band of Tiger tanks to deal with).
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

German units are placed on the map. 136 in total, I believe, which sounds like a lot but one division to the south is on static defense while five divisions on the Hitler Line will not be doing much until the Allies approach.

That leaves the Allied divisions. Some designer's license must prevail in these situations.

The average German division is about 14 battalion units including everything: infantry, engineer, armour, recon, artillery, flak.

Now take a look at this Wikipedia OOB for just the 1st Canadian Division. Concentrate on just the infantry brigades. If I were to provide two battalions for each of these regiments, that would be 18 battalions/units of infantry alone.

Image0375.jpg
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Now, say this division was typical of all 14 Allied divisions. 18 x 14 = 252 Allied infantry units. Now add on all of the other types of units. Chaos. This scenario is already huge and I must take care not to have it become unmanageable.

My point? Look for proximity and plausibility in my orders of battle, not 100% authenticity. There will be only 9 infantry units in the 1st Canadian Division, if that many. They will be labeled in this manner: "Loyal Edmonton / 1st Canadian"
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

Geez, I have to pack these Allied divisions in like sardines! Space is limited at the beginning ... I'll make them fit! :)
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uzbek2012
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by uzbek2012 »

bru888 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:36 pm Geez, I have to pack these Allied divisions in like sardines! Space is limited at the beginning ... I'll make them fit! :)

There is always someone who can quickly reduce your troops ;)
Image
https://russian7.ru/post/chudovishhe-om ... merikance/
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

uzbek2012 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:29 pm
bru888 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:36 pm Geez, I have to pack these Allied divisions in like sardines! Space is limited at the beginning ... I'll make them fit! :)

There is always someone who can quickly reduce your troops ;)
Image
https://russian7.ru/post/chudovishhe-om ... merikance/
Ummm, never mind. I'll get them in there one way or the other. THEN they can be thinned out ... by incompetent tactical command versus dug-in veteran troops! :evil:
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by ColonelY »

I hope you won't have to make another map to fit all these units in... :?

Another possibility, perhaps, would be to involve (i.e. spawn) some of our divisions a little later, once we've moved on a bit, but that might not be optimal either. :(
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

ColonelY wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:56 am I hope you won't have to make another map to fit all these units in... :?

Another possibility, perhaps, would be to involve (i.e. spawn) some of our divisions a little later, once we've moved on a bit, but that might not be optimal either. :(
Et voilà.

preview.png
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Screenshot 1.jpg
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Probably my largest scenario ever, violating personal rules for keeping things streamlined, but having chosen the approach (depicting the entire battle, involving several corps), there was no other way.

Allied land units: 148. German land units: 136. Some order of battle creativity was needed in order to include all 14 Allied divisions, but they are in there!

It's huge, but hopefully not unmanageable. 60 turns to start; we'll see whether that's a good guess.

This is probably my last large-scale battle in this campaign. I already intend to keep Operations Jedburgh, Falaise Pocket, Dragoon, and Strasbourg/Nordwind locally focused.

Operation Diadem should be out in a couple of days. The time-consuming parts (map, orders of battle) are now done and the objectives and triggers on this one will be relatively simple.
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by ColonelY »

Phew, beautiful. :D

Sure, we'll see for the number of turns. We can always finely tune this, it's not an issue. :wink:
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by ColonelY »

bru888 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:17 pm [...] Allied land units: 148. German land units: 136. [...] This is probably my last large-scale battle in this campaign. [...]
That's huge! 8) And these numbers doesn't take into account the various air units...
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

ColonelY wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:45 pm
bru888 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:17 pm [...] Allied land units: 148. German land units: 136. [...] This is probably my last large-scale battle in this campaign. [...]
That's huge! 8) And these numbers doesn't take into account the various air units...
Well, it will be out later today. You can be one of the judges as to whether it's too much. One thing to the good is that only 4 of the 10 German divisions will be doing anything at first: those on the Gustav Line. Another division in the south is on static defense until it is decimated and flees westward. The five divisions on the Hitler Line will be active only when the Allies get near.
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by bru888 »

Two things:
1) Yes, there is a considerable area of water on the map. No, there is no naval action in this one. Most of the battle was far inland; I have no references of any warships involved in Operation Diadem, and this thing is already one-sided enough without destroyers and cruisers taking potshots from the shore. Don't forget; we are portraying a major Allied victory here. This is reflected in the relative sizes of the orders of battle and that the Allies will be taking one defensive line at a time.
2) Take a look at this; it is from the Wikipedia article about the WW2 Italian Campaign:

Image0377.jpg
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Quite a ridiculous discrepancy in air strength. From this point on, we are going to be faced with the challenge of providing a challenge to the player while realistically portraying a war that will be winding down now, with the Germans on the short end of the stick. So, I am thinking that, while there will still be a German air presence in Operation Diadem, it is not going to be on a parity with Allied air forces.
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Re: Free France Campaign

Post by ColonelY »

Yes, no parity this time... :o

Yet, with just a question of few little months, we could have involved a German appearance of the Me 262 Schwalbe (as a first operational test or something)... these exceptional units do not need to be very numerous to represent a challenge... hem, with a few months to spare or with a slight twist to history... with potentially a secondary objective that if these units are destroyed enough soon, there won't be anymore of them, or much less at least, in the next scenarios (using a little campaign variable)... but that might be pushing it a bit far... though... "On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder, commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) to introduce the Me 262 into service and train a corps of pilots to fly it." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 ) So, a plane being tested from April on... the battle/scenario starts at mid-May...
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