The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piecemeal

Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent time; primarily focusing on the Japanese Warring States period and Japanese Invasion of Korea. Other armies from East Asia are also made available to simulate different conflicts across the region.
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Soar
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The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piecemeal

Post by Soar » Sun May 22, 2016 4:07 pm

So far I'm feeling positive overall regarding the game, but based on watching gameplay videos on Youtube pre-release and fighting several battles in the Imjin War campaign, it seems like the AI will often charge one strong unit (for example - in several cases that I've seen - Yari Samurai with a general) ahead of the rest of its forces at the beginning of the battle. Bereft of support, that unit tends to get mauled; in the last battle I played, I was quite concerned to see that 350-combat-strength unit of Yari Samurai approach my around-194-strength-maximum Gunbyeongs, but with their support lagging several turns of movement behind, I was able to flank it after the AI had it charge into melee on its lonesome, and the situation on that flank turned into a general rout for the Japanese, with Japanese units from towards the center rushing in piecemeal to try to help and getting routed in turn.

At the beginning of the battle, I had been seriously concerned that the Japanese would be able to break my line through sheer close combat power if they attacked as a cohesive formation. To be fair, it helped that my larger cavalry force was able to keep their cavalry occupied and distract several infantry units on the right flank, but it was still a particularly poor showing by the AI.

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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by Huskie » Wed May 25, 2016 1:36 am

I use these gamey tactics to my advantage, especially for the Bjeongja Horan campaign. Distract or wear their lone cavalry down. But when the AI does bring in the reserves, I suffer a moderate amount of losses, so it balances out in my opinion. Besides, the AI sits for like 7 turns despite attacking my army to relieve a siege so I don't really mind.
When soldiers have been baptized in the fire of a battle-field, they have all one rank in my eyes. ~Napoleon Bonaparte

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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by Biffa » Thu May 26, 2016 12:06 pm

Yep noticed this too, very Total War, the AI seems incapable of attacking in unison with more than a couple of units. I've seen a block of three keep formation and present a level front but it's rare. From what I've noticed they tend to send several disparate units forward and then slowly support whichever one is still standing in the next couple of moves. Also the AI has a tendency to move it's whole army towards my most forward units especially if it continuing to move towards their lines, this is a great way to encircle the AI's forces and control it's reactions.

GShock112
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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by GShock112 » Tue May 31, 2016 10:11 am

I don't concur with this analysis since I've been playing the Tenka Fubu intensively and as far as the battle is concerned the AI has other shortcomings but not the ones reported here.

It's likely that the AI reacts to the player's movements and since I don't do the deployment and advance all together to the center of the map, in my case, the AI reacts by moving altogether too.
A sure problem regards some particular units, cavalry and teppo so far noticed, that the AI sends very far away or hides in woods doing nothing (or doing nothing that can be seen) while the battle is raging and they would be a useful, if not determining factor in the final outcome. Once the AI tried to catch my Honjin and if it had flanked me, even just that single cavalry unit, I would have lost the battle.

The AI can surely be bettered with concentrating missiles, avoid being targeted by multiple missile units (actually, do something or you'll be shot to death here!) one round after the other and, as I said, try to do better flanking manouvers (you need a 1-unit advantage). Instead, it tends to try too hard to enter in some gaps in my lines where I can almost always end up flanking and winning by playing conservative.

The game is brand new... lots of improvements can still be made but considering how complex it is, the behavior of the AI is a very nice surprise so far.

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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by Paul59 » Tue May 31, 2016 7:05 pm

GShock112 wrote:The game is brand new... lots of improvements can still be made but considering how complex it is, the behavior of the AI is a very nice surprise so far.
Well, it's not completely brand new, as it is heavily based on the Pike and Shot Campaigns system. The AI is pretty decent in P&S Campaigns, and the only major difference that I can see between the two games which would affect how the AI operates is the new Generals system. I have not got Sengoku Jidai yet, and am interested in any comments you have upon how the AI handles it's generals in Sengoku Jidai.

regards

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GShock112
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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by GShock112 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:24 am

The system may not be new but the game is and I suppose any scenario requires micro-adjustments to the war type of the era it takes place in.

So about the generals I don't know how they work in other game-modes but I can tell you how it works in the Campaign mode because I am "specialized" ;)

The generals add +50 in melee to the unit they're in and their group of units, if in range, is given an extra 45° free turn (which is a critical help). Also (but this is something you have no control over), while normal units can make a rallying check 40% of the times a unit with a general does it 100% of the times and it also makes it easier for routed, fragmented and disrupted units to recover one morale step.

The AI does not perform deployment where you would expect it to select generals to a specific unit for a specific job because it doesn't seem to have a general masterplan (this is consistent with this system where there's no real attacker and defender, no strategic locations to conquer or defend for victory points and it's just a contest to who routs the other side first. This means it will come to you or wait for you to come to it and react accordingly) and aside from the 2 bonuses I've mentioned it doesn't relocate generals either during combat. I have noticed that AI units are more prone to recover but this depends on the unit quality and not on the generals (you could in theory move the general to some unit that is routing close by, I never did it and I didn't see the AI do it) because the checks are hidden.

As far as how these generals are employed, their starting unit is more capable but the general may fall at any time (the only time I haven't seen a general killed is by missile fire. So they do die in duel or in melee but not in missile attacks, however I am not 100% sure this doesn't happen but it does happen very often in the other 2 cases) in melee or duel. You can't see the enemy generals' duel skill so you never know how it's gonna end when you meet one but you know the side who loses loses the combat AND the area support bonus. Not sure the loss of the general actually has a morale check on the units of his command because the battle is very chaotic and during the resolution the mon icons are removed so you don't always understand who is who in the fray because things get mixed up by pursuits/routs... I can tell all the unit types of this campaign but during the resolution I can't always say who routs and who's pursuing (yes the UI is very spartan and could use some retouch).

The AI doesn't seem to purposedly look for a duel. Usually its crack units have the generals and, as I said, it doesn't move them to other units but you can. So for example you may choose to get those bonuses in a special spot of your line to help a weaker unit or make your strong unit stronger with a general or you may choose to use the general on a far side and then relocate him to a unit closer to the center to support the other units in the center who are out of command range... it's up to you.

A different speech is about the Honjin (the commander in chief of the army). At least in the Tenka Fubu campaign after you deploy it, you can't do anything with him. I'm not sure it adds anything to the quality of the army nor if he adds anything inside his command range. He does have a duel skill and he does kill or get killed by enemy generals. So far, the best use I've found with the Honjin is to HOPE the AI will attack it so at least one of its units is busy. The only time I've killed an enemy Honjin was in the tutorial battle Imagawa vs Takeda and I didn't see any change in the enemy morale.

These "uncertain" things all depend from a spartan UI... granted with experience you learn many things and luckily the DEVs have always answered questions about the mechanics.

All in all it's an easy game to learn but hard to master.

Falke_MatrixForum
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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by Falke_MatrixForum » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:28 pm

All Units within 1 (Subgeneral) 2(Cin C) of the General have to take a cohesion test when he is killed. For Ally Generals this affects only their own units. (Section 8.3 of the manual)

While in Combat units within CR/4 Spaces get +1 on any cohesion test

GShock112
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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by GShock112 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:36 am

Falke_MatrixForum wrote:All Units within 1 (Subgeneral) 2(Cin C) of the General have to take a cohesion test when he is killed. For Ally Generals this affects only their own units. (Section 8.3 of the manual)

While in Combat units within CR/4 Spaces get +1 on any cohesion test
The Honjin is 99% of the times too far away from battle to make any difference when he's killed. :?

rbodleyscott
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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:05 am

GShock112 wrote:
Falke_MatrixForum wrote:All Units within 1 (Subgeneral) 2(Cin C) of the General have to take a cohesion test when he is killed. For Ally Generals this affects only their own units. (Section 8.3 of the manual)

While in Combat units within CR/4 Spaces get +1 on any cohesion test
The Honjin is 99% of the times too far away from battle to make any difference when he's killed. :?
The Honjin has a large relative value in terms of the army's total rout %. It is worth the same as 3.33 500-men infantry units.
Richard Bodley Scott

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blond_knight_new
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Re: The AI seems to have a habit of dripping in troops piece

Post by blond_knight_new » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:48 pm

I don't recall the AI being this good in P&S beta. But I definitely feel that the AI is reacting to my movements, and trying to hit my flanks.

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