A Target Rich Enviornment

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TERRYFROMSPOKANE
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A Target Rich Enviornment

Post by TERRYFROMSPOKANE » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:33 pm

A 3x2 Roman BG was fighting a 2x4 phalanx lined up so the Phalanx was overlapped on its left. This Phalanx had rear support provided by a 1x6 BG of Thracians. The Thracians were offset half a stand to the right so they could also support another Phalanx deployed to the right of the phalanx in question. The phalanx broke, shifted half a stand width to its original left to avoid the Thracians and routed. The Romans rolled up for their VMD pursuit. They contacted the Thracians and were still able to contact the routing phalanx by stepping forward just a bit. So, now in the next Impact Phase, one Roman file was half in front of and in contact with the Thracians while the other two files were in contact with the phalanx. After the Impact combat was fought, we continued to the Movement Phase. Here is how we played it.

The Romans conformed to the Thracians by shifting half a base to their left. The stepped forward part of the BG (still in contact with the routing phalanx) shifted over too. This meant 1 file of Romans fighting the Thracians frontally and the next (stepped forward) file fighting the Thracians as an overlap. It is actually the Thracian's side's turn, so they can expand to their own right to go to a 3x2 formation to overlap the Roman left. Assuming the Romans are still in position when the JAP comes around, the phalanx will lose a stand and continue to rout.

I was a little unsure about allowing the Romans to conform to the Thracians while in contact with the routing phalanx and about allowing the middle Roman file to count as an overlap against the Thracians while in contact with the the rear of routers to its front.

Did we do this right?

Thanks, Terry G.

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Post by kevinj » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:20 am

I don't believe it's correct to step forward. Although the pursuers contact with the Thracians is treated as a charge, it is not a charge move. So I think you fight the impact as normal and then conform depending on who's turn it is. This probably gives the Romans an overlap as they won't be in contact with anyone else.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:44 am

kevinj wrote:I don't believe it's correct to step forward.

I believe it is - and am sure this has been confirmed before, but gods know where and when :o

Although the pursuers contact with the Thracians is treated as a charge, it is not a charge move.


That is, IMO, a DBx-esque over literal application of the language. However, to deal with it in like I would suggest that the section on page 54 on charging and stepping forward does not itself include "charge move", it says that "To charge" you move the BG, therefore, the term "charge" includes movement and thus is a charge move 8)

Basically a charge is a charge.
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Post by kevinj » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:47 am

I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but that's the way I've played it. I can see the logic of what you're saying, essentially the pursuit becomes a "Converted Charge", something that goes back even further than DBM! :D

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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:56 am

kevinj wrote:I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but that's the way I've played it. I can see the logic of what you're saying, essentially the pursuit becomes a "Converted Charge", something that goes back even further than DBM! :D

Oddly, "converted charge" is how I often think of it - Old Gits R Us time I think :P
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Post by Malty666 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:49 am

Hi Terry,

I would agree with you.

It 'feels' right to have them step forward. After the phalanx routs off, I would line the Romans up with the Thracians, representing ranks pulling back together. The Thracians and Romans can then feed bases into combat. Its simple and gives a good feel of the spirit of the game.
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Post by petedalby » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:36 pm

I agree with Nik - pursuers can step forwards if they hit new enemy.

What I'm less clear on from your description, is whether you conform? Provided you can conform to both the routing pikes and the thracians then I would say yes you do. If conforming to the thracians results in a non-conform to the pikes then I don't believe you do.
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Post by hammy » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:59 pm

petedalby wrote:I agree with Nik - pursuers can step forwards if they hit new enemy.

What I'm less clear on from your description, is whether you conform? Provided you can conform to both the routing pikes and the thracians then I would say yes you do. If conforming to the thracians results in a non-conform to the pikes then I don't believe you do.
As long as everything is parallel a comform will be possible. The routers can only shift sideways as far as needed to get past the Thracians which in effect will put them exactly next to them so the Romans will be able to conform.

The routers will rout again in the JAP anyway so unless this rout happens in the impact phase there will be no routers in contact at the start of the next movement phase anyway.

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Post by deadtorius » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:09 pm

When the Romans hit the Thracians it is a charge that would either be resolved during that turn if the pursuit and hit occurred during the impact phase or in the impact phase of the next turn.

As for removing bases that happens at the end of the turn phase, and only if the pursuers are still in contact. So one base would go after the first rout. Then in the JAP the pikes would rout off with a VMD and the Romans stay put fighting the Thracians. Poor Thracians lucky pikes.

I also don't see a problem with conforming to the Thracians. At the end of the turn the pikes are gone so a moot point there as the Thracians will still be there to get pummeled.

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Post by philqw78 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:11 am

This is a bit odd. If the "Chargers" hit the new BG in the JAP and step forward into the routers they will be in contact with the new enemy and the routers until the next JAP. So do the "chargers" get overlap dice from the bases in contact with the routers to add to the melee against the new target? They may be at a severe disadvantage if not. The bases in contact with routers don't get any dice against the routers, but can they be used against the new target?
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Post by Malty666 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:50 am

Well in the following melee phase the bases in overlap against the Thracians (and also in contact with the routers) can choose which unit to fight against (as is normal in combat).

Ideally you want it to be even. You have 4 bases in contact with the routers. 2 can fight the Thracians as overlap, and 2 'fight' against the routers.
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Post by philqw78 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:20 pm

But if the contact was like this the pursuers would be at a massive disadvantage


____ :twisted:
__ :twisted: :twisted:
__ :twisted: :P :P
:oops::oops:_:P :P
:oops::oops:

:twisted: pursuer
:P New enemy
:oops: Router

They would be overlapped and not overlap the enemy themselves.
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Post by Malty666 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:59 pm

Agreed - it would be 2 dice vs 2 dice in the impact, but 4 (for the smiling faces) vs 3 (for the devils) in the melee.

But then, the disadvantage comes from chasing after troops who were running away into fresh ones - which history shows us has rarely been a good idea. Just ask old King Harold. He thinks troops that chase the enemy are a right pain in the eye :lol:
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Post by rogerg » Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:01 pm

Wouldn't that be four dice versus two in the melee?
This will only be for a single round though, the router will be on their way in the JAP.

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Post by Malty666 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:33 pm

Thou speakest the troth! :oops:

Indeed 4 vs 2 for one round and then they all match up.

But that represents the unit not having the right impetus, not intending to charge etc.

In other words, they should have made a CMT not to pursue and shouldn't have been greedy :)
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Post by grahambriggs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:42 pm

The impact is 2 vs 2. Then in the movement phase the guys who were doing the pursuing before can feed a file in so would end up fighting with all their bases. They can do this because they're not in contact with an enemy front edge (p73)

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Post by footslogger » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:33 pm

I'm not sure why the pikes would still be there in the following impact phase. The pikes routed during melee and the romans caught them by stepping forward after hitting the supporting thracians. Don't the pikes rout again during the JAP and move away?

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Post by philqw78 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:20 pm

footslogger wrote:I'm not sure why the pikes would still be there in the following impact phase. The pikes routed during melee and the romans caught them by stepping forward after hitting the supporting thracians. Don't the pikes rout again during the JAP and move away?
If the chargers hit the routers in the JAP. See above
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Clarification

Post by SirGarnet » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:50 pm

pursuers can step forwards if they hit new enemy.
Ambiguous way to say it that leads to confusion.

P108 col 2 bullet 2 says "If pursuers contact fresh enemy in any phase, this is treated as a charge on the contacted enemy."

For chargers, you "must step them forward to make further contacts" after initial contact if they can "get more bases into contact with the same or different enemy". P54

Reading these together, it amounts to

After pursuers contact fresh enemy, then they must step forward if they can contact the same or other enemy.

In this case, fresh enemy is contacted, so the pursuers step forward into other enemy (routers).

If the routers had been contacted, they are not fresh enemy, so they would not step forward into other enemy.

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Post by deadtorius » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:02 pm

Since routers don't fight and you don't fight routers why not let them count as an overlap?

As for the pikes depends on when all this hitting the Thracians occurred. Sounds like it happened at the end of the melee phase during initial rout so I would say the pikes bugger off and leave the Thracians and Romans to duke it out. If thats the case during the Roman impact phase the charge would be resolved with no pikes to mess up the works.

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