Overlaps

This forum is for any questions about the rules. Post here is you need feedback from the design team.

Moderators: hammy, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Moderators, Field of Glory Design

titanu
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:26 am

Overlaps

Post by titanu » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:51 am

In the picture below the knights facing down the picture have three bases two in a column facing the last infantry base (with a general just behind) and one bases in front to front contact (facing up by mistake!) with the 'General leading' flag just behind their base.

The question is about the second knight in the column acting as an over-lap against the knights with the green, white and red horses , just above the yelloe dice.

Image

philqw78
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Posts: 8733
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:31 am
Location: Manchester

Post by philqw78 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:04 am

IMO it is an overlap. It cannot provide dice elsewhere and is in side edge contact with the front rank of enemy fighting.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

titanu
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:26 am

Post by titanu » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:08 am

That was how we played it but I was miffed that I could not expand out a file of infantry to where the yellow dice is. This was 'ruled' as an internal overlap.

zeitoun
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1046
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: poitiers FRANCE

Post by zeitoun » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:18 am

IMO no overlap. You are fighting as you're conformed. SO you cannot overlap between the two bases.

Can the Knight may leave the combat to the Spearmen and conform only to the ennemy's Knight as the bases can conform to an overlap position?? then deployed to their left ??
Olivier Marceau
early carthage
later carthage
HWY continental
WOTR Yorkish, Tudor and Lancastre
Perses Sassanids
Francais Ordonnance

grahambriggs
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3009
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:48 am

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:22 pm

Yes, I think you played this correctly. The rear rank knight is in partial edge contact with the flank of your knights and is not fighting or contributing a POA to the front. The overlap position is at the end of your Knight battle group, so that's a valid overlap.

You can't overlap an enemy BG except at the end so your foot can't feed in to get a second overlap.

petedalby
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3040
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Fareham, UK

Post by petedalby » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:10 am

I have a lot of sympathy for you on this one Bob but it appears to be correct. Page 86 - first bullet point under 'Overlaps'.
Pete

titanu
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:26 am

Post by titanu » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:15 am

petedalby wrote:I have a lot of sympathy for you on this one Bob but it appears to be correct. Page 86 - first bullet point under 'Overlaps'.
Pah now I'm being patronised by a man half my age, twice as tall, twice a good looking and twice a good a player - all is lost!!

titanu
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:26 am

Post by titanu » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:16 am

That raises another interesting point. If they had another base could the knights create an overlap where I am not allowed to where the yellow dice is?

petedalby
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3040
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Fareham, UK

Post by petedalby » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:23 am

Pah now I'm being patronised by a man half my age, twice as tall, twice a good looking and twice a good a player - all is lost!!
An exaggeration on all counts!
That raises another interesting point. If they had another base could the knights create an overlap where I am not allowed to where the yellow dice is?
I think that might fail the 'Battle Group Formation' test on Page 23?
Pete

Polkovnik
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:16 pm

Post by Polkovnik » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:09 pm

How did they get into that position ? It doesn't look like a legal step-forward.

titanu
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:26 am

Post by titanu » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:11 pm

Polkovnik wrote:How did they get into that position ? It doesn't look like a legal step-forward.
They were in a 2 by 2 formation (the base behind the one in contact with the knights was lost in the combat) and the left hand (as we see it) column stepped forward less than 2" into the foot.

hoodlum
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:30 pm

How many dice ?

Post by hoodlum » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:09 pm

My Question for this scenario is how many dice do the infantry get in melee?

From the photo it looks as though the infantry contacted is not in full base to base contact. if that is the case My interpretation of the rules is that the infantry will not get an overlap in the first round of melee. In subsequent melee in the infantry's turn the infantry can then conform to the knights and expand to get 2 dice in combat and 4 dice in overlap.

Do you agree?

Peter

petedalby
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3040
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Fareham, UK

Post by petedalby » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:14 pm

Do you agree?
Unfortunately not - no.

They fight as if conformed so the foot would get 4 dice to the knights' 2.
Pete

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:01 am

As usual Pete D is correct 8)
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

hazelbark
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4957
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: Capital of the World !!

Re: How many dice ?

Post by hazelbark » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:39 pm

hoodlum wrote:My Question for this scenario is how many dice do the infantry get in melee?

From the photo it looks as though the infantry contacted is not in full base to base contact. if that is the case My interpretation of the rules is that the infantry will not get an overlap in the first round of melee. In subsequent melee in the infantry's turn the infantry can then conform to the knights and expand to get 2 dice in combat and 4 dice in overlap.
Remember you ALWAYS fight as if you had conformed.

zeitoun
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1046
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: poitiers FRANCE

Re: How many dice ?

Post by zeitoun » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:28 pm

hazelbark wrote:
hoodlum wrote:My Question for this scenario is how many dice do the infantry get in melee?

From the photo it looks as though the infantry contacted is not in full base to base contact. if that is the case My interpretation of the rules is that the infantry will not get an overlap in the first round of melee. In subsequent melee in the infantry's turn the infantry can then conform to the knights and expand to get 2 dice in combat and 4 dice in overlap.
Remember you ALWAYS fight as if you had conformed.
so if you always fight as if you had conform, KN could not overlap....
Olivier Marceau
early carthage
later carthage
HWY continental
WOTR Yorkish, Tudor and Lancastre
Perses Sassanids
Francais Ordonnance

dave_r
General - King Tiger
General - King Tiger
Posts: 3793
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Re: How many dice ?

Post by dave_r » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:44 pm

zeitoun wrote:
hazelbark wrote:
hoodlum wrote:My Question for this scenario is how many dice do the infantry get in melee?

From the photo it looks as though the infantry contacted is not in full base to base contact. if that is the case My interpretation of the rules is that the infantry will not get an overlap in the first round of melee. In subsequent melee in the infantry's turn the infantry can then conform to the knights and expand to get 2 dice in combat and 4 dice in overlap.
Remember you ALWAYS fight as if you had conformed.
so if you always fight as if you had conform, KN could not overlap....
Yes they could.
Evaluator of Supremacy

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: How many dice ?

Post by ravenflight » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:56 pm

dave_r wrote:
zeitoun wrote:so if you always fight as if you had conform, KN could not overlap....
Yes they could.
From a realism perspective I'm a little bit with Olivier here.

I can understand the 'fighting as conformed' meaning that the flow of battle means that in essence it's once big line, but if that's the case the overlap shouldn't count OR the foot should be able to expand.

It seems silly any other way.

That might not be what the rules say - and I agree so far that the rules are saying just that - but perhaps that's an area that needs some massaging...

dave_r
General - King Tiger
General - King Tiger
Posts: 3793
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Re: How many dice ?

Post by dave_r » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:06 pm

ravenflight wrote:
dave_r wrote:
zeitoun wrote:so if you always fight as if you had conform, KN could not overlap....
Yes they could.
From a realism perspective I'm a little bit with Olivier here.

I can understand the 'fighting as conformed' meaning that the flow of battle means that in essence it's once big line, but if that's the case the overlap shouldn't count OR the foot should be able to expand.

It seems silly any other way.

That might not be what the rules say - and I agree so far that the rules are saying just that - but perhaps that's an area that needs some massaging...
Definitely not. The problem with allowing internal overlaps on BG's would create a whole world of pain.

It is also worth noting that the Knights cannot expand either.
Evaluator of Supremacy

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: How many dice ?

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:26 am

dave_r wrote:
Definitely not. The problem with allowing internal overlaps on BG's would create a whole world of pain.[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand why. If the crossbowmen were already behind the friendly knights (in the 'expand position') at the start of combat then they would double overlap their enemy knights. So how does being able to expand into that position cause problems?

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”