Angle of charge query

This forum is for any questions about the rules. Post here is you need feedback from the design team.

Moderators: hammy, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Design, Field of Glory Moderators

Post Reply
LordNytram
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Angle of charge query

Post by LordNytram » Fri May 22, 2015 3:12 pm

An issue arose in a game last night along the following lines:

Lancer cavalry failed a test not to charge some pesky skirmishers and therefore had to charge.
There were no other troops within the normal 5mu movement range and I did have room to adjust the charge angle a little against the skirmishers.
Finally and key to this query there were enemy knights straight ahead of my lancers outside 6mu but inside 7mu.

The turn order states that I have to mark my direction of charge (without reducing bases or dice at impact that I would get if I charged straight forward).
This I wanted to do by angling the charge so that if my lancers rolled a 6 giving me a VDM of +2 I could just miss those nasty knights that were waiting for them.

There was no question that I could legally angle the charge at the skirmishers the way I wanted if the knights were not there.

Now my opponent insisted that the angle I wanted was fine as long as I didn't roll a 6 on the VMD. This I promptly did and he insisted I had no option but to ignore my marked charge direction and charge straight into the knights.

Was I done over chaps or was my opponent correct?

The way I read the rules the turn order required you to mark the direction before rolling the VMD, and I interpret this as meaning that (excluding the VMD) I have to comply with the rule not to reduce base and dice contacts at that moment. We then go on the roll VMD phase and I don't think I should be required to change direction if a new target suddenly presents as a result of the extra range from the VDM?

berthier
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:01 am
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Contact:

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by berthier » Sat May 23, 2015 12:39 pm

Based on what you have written and absent a picture, I believe your buddy was incorrect.

First and foremost, you as the attacker are not under any restriction to maximize the number of enemy bases contacted as implied by your opponent. P.57, right hand column, specifically states that the charging BG cannot reduce its own combat dice by wheeling. This section also specifically states that this is determined by the positions prior to interceptions and evades.

In this case, you would declare your charge and your charge angle. If two of your bases would contact and fight (i.e. 4 impact dice) by moving straight ahead then the same must be true with your wheel.

As the knights are outside charge range, and this is defined on p.62, 1st bullet under TROOPS WHO MAY CHARGE WITHOUT ORDERS, as your lancer's normal move, your are not required by the RAW to charge straight ahead after rolling the VMD.

Additionally, per page 57, left hand column 1st bullet, charge angles must be declared BEFORE charge responses and rolling the VMD and can only be modified if all charge targets evade out of the original path.

IMHO, you were done over based on what you have provided.
Christopher Anders
2019-2020 GCC Coordinator
http://bloodsandsteel.blogspot.com/

petedalby
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3008
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Fareham, UK

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by petedalby » Sat May 23, 2015 2:37 pm

Thanks for that Chris - good to see someone in the States is still playing FoG.

I was the owner of the Knights and it seems we have a different interpretation of Page 57. The Knights were directly in front of Martyn's cavalry and within 7MU.

Page 57 - last bullet - "Unless required to avoid friends, a wheel cannot be made if it would result in less combat dice being thrown by the charging BG in the impact phase combat than if it charged straight ahead." (The bold is mine for emphasis.)

So my rationale was simple - if it wheeled, it would not catch the LF and no combat dice would be thrown. But if it charged straight ahead then 4 combat dice would be thrown as it would charge straight ahead into the Knights.

Page 64 also has - "Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead."

Again the bold is mine for emphasis. But since they could not contact the evaders it seemed reasonable for them to contact the enemy straight ahead and within charge reach.

This particular incident did not materially change the outcome of our game but I am keen to get it right wherever possible. Having re-read the rules away from the table I'm still pretty comfortable that in this situation the wheel was not permitted. Had the Cavalry thrown anything but a 6 for their VMD they could have wheeled since no enemy BG could be contacted.
Pete

philqw78
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Posts: 8646
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:31 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by philqw78 » Sat May 23, 2015 4:09 pm

I think you are wrong Pete. The knights are completely irrelevant to the direction if charge
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

berthier
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:01 am
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Contact:

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by berthier » Sat May 23, 2015 4:29 pm

Phil beat me to the punch.
Christopher Anders
2019-2020 GCC Coordinator
http://bloodsandsteel.blogspot.com/

dave_r
General - King Tiger
General - King Tiger
Posts: 3764
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by dave_r » Sat May 23, 2015 7:44 pm

petedalby wrote:Thanks for that Chris - good to see someone in the States is still playing FoG.

I was the owner of the Knights and it seems we have a different interpretation of Page 57. The Knights were directly in front of Martyn's cavalry and within 7MU.

Page 57 - last bullet - "Unless required to avoid friends, a wheel cannot be made if it would result in less combat dice being thrown by the charging BG in the impact phase combat than if it charged straight ahead." (The bold is mine for emphasis.)

So my rationale was simple - if it wheeled, it would not catch the LF and no combat dice would be thrown. But if it charged straight ahead then 4 combat dice would be thrown as it would charge straight ahead into the Knights.
The problem with this rationale is the turn sequence - you are forced to declare a charge - but you can still declare a wheel (as long as it is legal). It is no different to an ordinary charge where you can declare the angle to avoid troops you really don't want to charge.
Page 64 also has - "Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead."

Again the bold is mine for emphasis. But since they could not contact the evaders it seemed reasonable for them to contact the enemy straight ahead and within charge reach.
The key here is "charge range". At the time of declaring the charge the knights are not within charge range, therefore you don't take them into account. Page 62 states "Do not take into account possible additional or reduced move distance from any VMD that may be required" when talking about troops that may charge without orders. In addition page 57 when talking about Charging with your battle groups and wheeling states "This is determined from the positions prior to interception charges or evades", which, according to the turn sequence must also mean prior to a VMD being taken. Therefore the actual result of the VMD is irrelevant.
This particular incident did not materially change the outcome of our game but I am keen to get it right wherever possible. Having re-read the rules away from the table I'm still pretty comfortable that in this situation the wheel was not permitted. Had the Cavalry thrown anything but a 6 for their VMD they could have wheeled since no enemy BG could be contacted.
Nope - this is not correct and Marty was indeed "done over" ;)
Evaluator of Supremacy

LordNytram
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by LordNytram » Sun May 24, 2015 9:07 am

Thanks for the responses chaps. As Pete said it didn't really impact this game, just meant the death of my lancers would be delayed a turn but its important to clarify this as it could make a big difference in some games.

petedalby
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3008
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Fareham, UK

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by petedalby » Tue May 26, 2015 6:27 am

Okay - thanks guys. Still doesn't feel quite right to me but I accept the points made about the charge path and initial charge reach.

My apologies Martyn. Maybe we ought to have a rematch?
Pete

grahambriggs
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Posts: 2983
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:48 am

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by grahambriggs » Sun May 31, 2015 7:03 pm

petedalby wrote:Okay - thanks guys. Still doesn't feel quite right to me but I accept the points made about the charge path and initial charge reach.

My apologies Martyn. Maybe we ought to have a rematch?
I think the thing that confuses here is that there are two similar but different issues:

How much can I wheel the path of my charge by? A: no reducing of dice at impact and assume the skirmishers stay in their original position to work that out.

Which units are in my charge path if I roll a 6 on my VMD? Your charge path isn't straight ahead if you wheel, so take the wheel into account for the charge path.

But yes, having read it through the cav do miss the knights

zoltan
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:40 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by zoltan » Sun May 31, 2015 8:05 pm

So if I declare a wheel at the time of declaring a charge, and my opponent evades, do I move:

1. in accordance with my declared wheel (regardless of which direction the evaders move), or
2. towards the evaders by the most direct means (even if that has the effect of ignoring my aforementioned declared wheel angle)?

berthier
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:01 am
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Contact:

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by berthier » Sun May 31, 2015 8:11 pm

The only allowed change in the initially declared charge angle is defined on p. 57 and is only allowed if all targets evade out of the charge path.
Christopher Anders
2019-2020 GCC Coordinator
http://bloodsandsteel.blogspot.com/

philqw78
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Posts: 8646
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:31 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by philqw78 » Sun May 31, 2015 9:22 pm

And then you don't have to
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

zoltan
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:40 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by zoltan » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:45 am

So wheeling chargers whose target evades can chose to carry on with their original wheel (even if this clearly takes them in a direction that has no chance of catching the evaders) or make a new wheel to follow the evaders.

philqw78
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Posts: 8646
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:31 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by philqw78 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:58 pm

Well your only going to bother if you catch them otherwise why waste the energy

But yes
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

pyruse
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:32 am

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by pyruse » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:33 am

I guess you might want to follow the evaders if it puts you a bit further away from a threatening enemy unit.

dave_r
General - King Tiger
General - King Tiger
Posts: 3764
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Re: Angle of charge query

Post by dave_r » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:12 pm

You might want to follow the evaders if they throw a one and you throw a six
Evaluator of Supremacy

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”