MOVEMENT

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berthier
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by berthier » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:33 am

The current proposal from the top of this section 3b, is to limit LH double moves to when they are led by a commander that is depicted (and allowed in the army list) as LH or when brigaded in a battle line with non-skirmish mounted (with the commander attached to the battle troops).

From our play tests, the consensus is that there are too many caveats (I.e. Special situations) being introduced.
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hazelbark
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by hazelbark » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:40 pm

berthier wrote:
3b) Light Horse cannot double move unless they are led by a commander depicted as light horse...
This seems to be an over complication that is really not needed. As generals by themselves have no explicit combat factor, why add this? This ensures more lists have to be errata-ed to address the issue that LH generals were not allowed to begin with (Mongols come to mind and possibly Huns, Skythians, Numidians and Parthians as well).

Keep the second part of this proposal saying they have to move as part of a battle-line with battle troops and be done with it.
I think Chris has a very valid point. I would disagree only to the extent if you made general more interesting and varied this could be part of that. But the tiny iteration may not be worth the gain.

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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by PrinceFafa2 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:20 pm

[quote="terrys"]MOVEMENT
Changes to the movement rules as follows:

1) Heavy Foot move 4MU in the open

Or "Heaven of pikemen and spearmen"

My understanding is that it would represent Heavy infantry marching in loose formation, why not, makes sense. But it would lead to strange situations where HF would become the best cavalry hunters with limited risks (comparing to MF) or where they could charge with no skirmish shooting response!
I think that HF could move at 4 MU when they are at strategic range but they should move at 3 MU in tactic (6 MU and less) in order to represent that they come back in close formation.

Prince Fafa

philqw78
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by philqw78 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:58 pm

Exactly, add an inch to everything, and that's not just my wife's opinion
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terrys
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by terrys » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:52 am

Re. Depiction of commanders.

This is not something new.
Elephant generals already have their specific rules.
Introducing Light Horse generals may well be an inconvenience rather than a benefit to the game.

I've considered introducing a range of generals:
> Light Horse generals can double move with light horse, but can only influence cavalry and Light horse in combat
> Cavalry generals can only influence cavalry, light horse, chariots (not knights) and infantry (not warwagons) in combat - they can only move 5MU in the movement phase
> Infantry generals can only influence infantry, Warwagons and elephants in combat - they can only move 4MU in the movement phase - they have a +1 to the death roll in combat.
(i.e. they're more difficult to kill in combat).
> Knight generals can only influence other knights in combat - they may dismount at start of game to influence infantry - they only move 4MU/5MU in the movement phase
> Elephant generals can only influence infantry (not Warwagons) and elephants in combat - they can only move 4MU in the movement phase
> Chariot generals can only command cavalry, chariots and infantry in combat - they only move 4MU/5MU in the movement phase
> All generals move as Light Horse during the Jap Phase (otherwise they'd never reach a routing unit to rally it.
> As a general rule - All armies that have Steppe in their terrain list can have light horse commanders as Sub-Generals (or allied commanders if supplying an allied contingent).

This was thought to be too complicated., and one of the arguments against is that you'll need to create more commander bases with each base identifiable as what it's supposed to represent.


As an alternative, we leave the rules as they are, but to make it easier we only allow LH to double move only on the move that they arrive from a flank march.

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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by LEmpereur » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:57 am

terrys wrote:Re. Depiction of commanders.

This is not something new.
Elephant generals already have their specific rules.
Introducing Light Horse generals may well be an inconvenience rather than a benefit to the game.

I've considered introducing a range of generals:
> Light Horse generals can double move with light horse, but can only influence cavalry and Light horse in combat
> Cavalry generals can only influence cavalry, light horse, chariots (not knights) and infantry (not warwagons) in combat - they can only move 5MU in the movement phase
> Infantry generals can only influence infantry, Warwagons and elephants in combat - they can only move 4MU in the movement phase - they have a +1 to the death roll in combat.
(i.e. they're more difficult to kill in combat).
> Knight generals can only influence other knights in combat - they may dismount at start of game to influence infantry - they only move 4MU/5MU in the movement phase
> Elephant generals can only influence infantry (not Warwagons) and elephants in combat - they can only move 4MU in the movement phase
> Chariot generals can only command cavalry, chariots and infantry in combat - they only move 4MU/5MU in the movement phase
> All generals move as Light Horse during the Jap Phase (otherwise they'd never reach a routing unit to rally it.
> As a general rule - All armies that have Steppe in their terrain list can have light horse commanders as Sub-Generals (or allied commanders if supplying an allied contingent).

This was thought to be too complicated., and one of the arguments against is that you'll need to create more commander bases with each base identifiable as what it's supposed to represent.


As an alternative, we leave the rules as they are, but to make it easier we only allow LH to double move only on the move that they arrive from a flank march.
Can you be clear on the exact V3 rules proposed... is it 3b/ ? :?
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by terrys » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:47 am

Can you be clear on the exact V3 rules proposed... is it 3b/ ? :?
leaving out changes to commanders entirely the proposal is to use 3a
> Skirmishers (including LH) cannot double move - except during the first move that they arrive from a flank march.

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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by LEmpereur » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:06 pm

terrys wrote:
Can you be clear on the exact V3 rules proposed... is it 3b/ ? :?
leaving out changes to commanders entirely the proposal is to use 3a
> Skirmishers (including LH) cannot double move - except during the first move that they arrive from a flank march.
sorry but it is still not clear to me. :oops:

What is the rule ?

3b no longer exists?

can you modify the post 1?
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by terrys » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:41 pm

What is the rule ?
3b no longer exists?
can you modify the post 1?
Post 1 has been modified.
All I've done is to permit LH to double march on the first move they arrive from a flank march (if led be a commander of course).

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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by LEmpereur » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:00 pm

terrys wrote:
What is the rule ?
3b no longer exists?
can you modify the post 1?
Post 1 has been modified.
All I've done is to permit LH to double march on the first move they arrive from a flank march (if led be a commander of course).
Thanks
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Cross Posted from AAR as its Movement

Post by philqw78 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:55 am

The problem with HF armies is that they cannot captalise on any break throughs that they make. It takes them far too long to turn/wheel/move to get into contact with any other BG after they have broken their opponents. That is the problem that needs solving.
Making them move faster at the start of the game only advances their contact with enemy maybe one bound. Making them move faster within 6MU increases their influence enormously, and does awful things to shooting. So neither of those work well (IMO). They also have the problem of when beating mounted the mounted generally break off and are then at no risk from the foot giving them chance of escape

You need another mechanism to allow HF (and probably others) a chance to be exploit their success. You also need something simple

Allow any troops all of whose opponents broke this phase and outdistanced them in pursuit, or all of whose opponents broke off to make a 2MU move at the end of that phase
-Its an extra step in the turn sequence at the end of Impact and Melee phases
-It will mainly advantage heavy foot as they are most likely to be outdistanced
-It will allow any foot to get within charge or Effective shooting range of enemy that have broken off from them. (This will stop people keeping their foot disrupted to fight mounted so their mounted opponents don't break off - cheesy)
-Once troops make a success they get the chance to use it.
-Being a move of only 2MU for all advantages nobody more than others (except HF will get to do it more often)
-Drilled and undrilled with a general could turn, but no troops could turn and move
phil
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by RobKhan » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:02 am

Hi Phil,
What about allowing HF to do a turn instead of pursuing, if the pursuit VMD fails to keep them in contact with the broken enemy?
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by ChrisTofalos » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:52 am

I've heard there's been some talk of the suggested 4MU for HF causing problems (for cavalry shooters?). What about allowing a 4MU normal move but only a 3MU charge? It's possibly a bit awkward/inelegant but it might solve the problem and bring those HF into play more often (the purpose of the original proposed change)...

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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by philqw78 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:03 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:I've heard there's been some talk of the suggested 4MU for HF causing problems (for cavalry shooters?). What about allowing a 4MU normal move but only a 3MU charge? It's possibly a bit awkward/inelegant but it might solve the problem and bring those HF into play more often (the purpose of the original proposed change)...
Currently things stop outside of 6MU if double moving. Meaning HF must move twice and then charge. If they could move 4 they could move once then charge
phil
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terrys
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by terrys » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:54 pm

I've heard there's been some talk of the suggested 4MU for HF causing problems (for cavalry shooters?). What about allowing a 4MU normal move but only a 3MU charge? It's possibly a bit awkward/inelegant but it might solve the problem and bring those HF into play more often (the purpose of the original proposed change)...
We tried that and found it unworkable. It looks OK when charging evading cavalry, but is very strange that you can't charge an enemy 3 1/2 inches away - but can walk past them.
We tested out an alternative this week - allowing HF a 4MU move, but making the VMD move 3MU +/-2
It seemed to work very well - making it useful to actually skirmish with the HF rather than just turning round and walking slowly away.
If actually has the right effect slowing the HF down by forcing them to charge (unless they roll a 5 or a 6).
It also has the added advantage of making it less likely that they'll catch evading Cavalry and Light Foot in the rear - which is probably a little too easy at the moment.

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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by scuzi » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:00 pm

What about HF move 4 mu when outside of 6mu but 3mu within (including charge distance ) and a vmd of 3mu + score 1,2 -2 and 5,6+2

berthier
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by berthier » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:53 pm

4" outside of 6" of the enemy and 3" inside of 6" would appear to make more sense unless we are changing the skirmish bow ranges back to V1
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by LEmpereur » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:13 pm

berthier wrote:4" outside of 6" of the enemy and 3" inside of 6" would appear to make more sense unless we are changing the skirmish bow ranges back to V1
I said it since the start of the beta test... :(
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by berthier » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:54 pm

LEmpereur wrote:
berthier wrote:4" outside of 6" of the enemy and 3" inside of 6" would appear to make more sense unless we are changing the skirmish bow ranges back to V1
I said it since the start of the beta test... :(
Yes, yes you have.
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terrys
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Re: MOVEMENT

Post by terrys » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:13 pm

4" outside of 6" of the enemy and 3" inside of 6" would appear to make more sense unless we are changing the skirmish bow ranges back to V1
The problem with this proposal is that the HF will usually only ever get to double move on the first turn of the game. Every other turn (assuming a half-competent opponent) they won't be able to double move because their first move will either start or end within 4mu of skirmishers or 6MU of battle troops (often facing away).

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