SHOOTING

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terrys
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SHOOTING

Post by terrys » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:57 pm

SHOOTING

1) MF with Bow, Longbow or Bow* who wish to shoot in the shooting phase have their movement reduce by 1MU.
> They cannot fire at all if they turned, expanded or placed PO's' this turn.

2) MF with crossbow or firearms cannot shoot during their own turn if they move at all.
.....> However - Crossbows no longer get the -POA for shooting at foot.

3a) Support shooting by MF with crossbow gets a -POA
3b) support shooting by MF with bow or bow* get a -POA if their front rank has an impact weapon or impact factor. (even if the weapon doesn't give them a POA against the current enemy - eg HW against mounted)
.....> LF support shooting doesn't get this -POA

4) Bow* can fire from the first 3 ranks (infantry OR cavalry).
.....> MF with Bow* can fire from the 2nd rank only for support shooting.

5) Single rank Offensive and Defensive Spears get a +POA at impact If they have a 2nd rank of battle troops (MF or HF).

philqw78
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by philqw78 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:55 pm

What is support shooting.

If its during the impact phase bw* could never shoot in impact so saying still is silly
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

philqw78
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by philqw78 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:02 pm

What about defensive spear one rank deep? They have an impact weapon but no factor. Makes them shitter than they are already
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

terrys
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by terrys » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:44 pm

If its during the impact phase bw* could never shoot in impact so saying still is silly
Sorry - I've been playing this so long I forgot that they don't get it at present....I've updated the proposal above.

What about defensive spear one rank deep? They have an impact weapon but no factor. Makes them shitter than they are already
I haven't completed adding all the proposals as yet - this was going to be added as 'other'
However, the proposal has been added above instead.

I'll complete the list tomorrow.....

Vespasian28
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by Vespasian28 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:59 pm

Am I the only one who suffers from Unprotected Medium foot Bow being outshot by skirmishers? Happens every time I use Classical Indians in their pre 1AD form.

timmy1
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by timmy1 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:27 pm

Yes

azrael86
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by azrael86 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:13 pm

I presume this is an oversight, but is the above written to be consistent with the rulebook as written, as in Longbows are not Bow?

terrys
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by terrys » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:17 pm

I presume this is an oversight, but is the above written to be consistent with the rulebook as written, as in Longbows are not Bow?
You are correct. Longbow should (and now have been) included.

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Re: SHOOTING

Post by azrael86 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Seems suspisciously pro-French to me.

hazelbark
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by hazelbark » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:00 pm

terrys wrote:SHOOTING

1) MF with Bow, Longbow or Bow* who wish to shoot in the shooting phase have their movement reduce by 1MU.
> They cannot fire at all if they turned, expanded or placed PO's' this turn.
Another way to do this, would be to say these shooters who move or wiggle in any way, count all shooting as long range. Not sure which way gets to your objective. Is it to limit shooters chasing fleeing enemy with bows, or actually to reduce reduce movement.

This idea probably doesn't work from a game point of view, but I think would be pretty historical. If any MF or LF bow start within charge range of an enemy mounted that they can shoot at, cannot move except to deploy stakes. Essentially you would freeze MF bow with mounted. Probably not needed.

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Re: SHOOTING

Post by dave_r » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:51 pm

hazelbark wrote:
terrys wrote:SHOOTING

1) MF with Bow, Longbow or Bow* who wish to shoot in the shooting phase have their movement reduce by 1MU.
> They cannot fire at all if they turned, expanded or placed PO's' this turn.
Another way to do this, would be to say these shooters who move or wiggle in any way, count all shooting as long range. Not sure which way gets to your objective. Is it to limit shooters chasing fleeing enemy with bows, or actually to reduce reduce movement.

This idea probably doesn't work from a game point of view, but I think would be pretty historical. If any MF or LF bow start within charge range of an enemy mounted that they can shoot at, cannot move except to deploy stakes. Essentially you would freeze MF bow with mounted. Probably not needed.
We did discuss this option, but plumped for the version Terry has said. Some test games would be interesting to see how people feel it actually pans out.
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terrys
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by terrys » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:03 am

Another way to do this, would be to say these shooters who move or wiggle in any way, count all shooting as long range. Not sure which way gets to your objective. Is it to limit shooters chasing fleeing enemy with bows, or actually to reduce reduce movement.
As Dave says we looked at this option, but found that 2 bow armies couldn't afford to advance against each other....It was also a bit fiddly trying to remember which BGs had moved and which hadn't. At least this way it's All-or-nothing.

Vespasian28
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by Vespasian28 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:36 pm

Just wanted to clarify.
If a BG of Bow etc expands a single file the whole BG cannot shoot or just the file that expanded?

terrys
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by terrys » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:18 pm

If a BG of Bow etc expands a single file the whole BG cannot shoot or just the file that expanded?
Correct. Expanding effectively takes up 2MU of your move.

philqw78
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by philqw78 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:49 pm

That's not an answer to the question
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

terrys
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by terrys » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:00 pm

The rule is:
> They cannot fire at all if they turned, expanded or placed PO's' this turn.
Without going into the exact wording for V3
Expanding is an action taken by the battle-group - not just be the bases that actually move.
Therefore none of the bases can fire.

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Re: SHOOTING

Post by LEmpereur » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:28 am

terrys wrote:2) MF with crossbow or firearms cannot shoot during their own turn if they move at all.
.....> However - Crossbows no longer get the -POA for shooting at foot.
What is the scale of time?
During one turn, crossbowmen can he reload and shoot?
Should we consider the crossbowmen therefore does not move during the enemy turn can shoot ? Is this realistic?

What happened since V2 for these good people must now act in stop and shoot?

What's the point that justifies the POA gift against foot ? Do they shoot better in V3 than V2 or I give from the left hand (POA) what I take from the left (move so don't shoot) ?
I am really disappointed ... even sad ! :cry:
terrys wrote:1) MF with Bow, Longbow or Bow* who wish to shoot in the shooting phase have their movement reduce by 1MU.
> They cannot fire at all if they turned, expanded or placed PO's' this turn.
2) MF with crossbow or firearms cannot shoot during their own turn if they move at all.
.....> However - Crossbows no longer get the -POA for shooting at foot.
Overall, the proposed changes create exceptions and change the fundamentals... here the fact than crossbow or firearms shoot or not... the MF with Bow, Longbow or Bow* have their movement reduce by 1MU or not !

What makes the rule more complex and therefore less accessible.
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paullongmore
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Re: SHOOTING

Post by paullongmore » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:40 pm

FOG 3 MF bows
My thoughts on v3 Rule changes affecting MF Bow (inc Longbow).

Detrimental
MF with Bow or Bow* who wish to shoot in the shooting phase have their movement reduce by 1MU. They cannot fire at all if they turned, expanded or placed PO's' this turn.
Initial thought is it seems reasonable that troops cannot move at full speed and load and fire, so if the rule were that all bow armed troops who wish to shoot in the shooting phase have their movement reduced by 1MU I would say this was potentially a good change but it doesn’t apply to LF, LH or Cav. In fact Cav can turn around move back turn around again and still shoot without movement reduction.

All bases get 3 Dice at impact. (4 for Elephants and Scythed Chariots)
means the extra dice for Support shooting is proportionally less effective

Set up deployment designed to give less terrain especially in the centre
bad for MF

Heavy Foot move 4MU in the open
less shots on them as they close and removes a speed benefit to being MF – not a fan of this one, the problem with this is that it changes the dynamics of shooting and the balance of the troop types, I would amend it to Heavy foot normal and charge move is 4 inches when they are more than 6 inches from enemy non-skirmishers

support shooting by MF with bow or bow* get a -POA if their front rank has an impact weapon or impact factor. (even if the weapon doesn't give them a POA against the current enemy - eg HW against mounted)
.....> LF support shooting doesn't get this -POA
- I do like the concept of helping the basic bowman, which almost no-one plays, however, this is not making them any better.

It takes a complete move to place Portable Obstacles. They must be placed within the 1st 3 turns of a game, and cannot be moved after placement. - not sure the first bit is a change presumably it means instead of having to do a CMT. As it takes a turn to place them and generously assuming that it means that players 1st 3 turns rather than the first 3 turns, if the first move is a double you should be able to get your MF to 24 inches (mid table). Cannot be moved after deployment is sensible. At first sight this makes PO so unusably poor you may as well just get rid of them.

Bow* can fire from the first 3 ranks (infantry OR cavalry).
a dedicated bow unit used to be able to outshoot these amateurs – why on earth should they shoot deeper than everyone else?

Crossbows no longer get the -POA for shooting at foot.
Non-armoured foot was the one thing bows were better at shooting than crossbows. Crossbows are now better vs such common troops as armoured foot, 2 deep Cav and Knights. Longbows must wonder what they are paying an extra point for. :twisted:

Advantageous

Nada :oops:

At V2 bows were improved by removing the minus for support shooting as they weren’t competitive. One would assume from this flurry of detrimental rule changes that in v2 MF bows were dominating the competition scene. Looking at the Classical period at Britcon this year of the 24 armies there were no bow armies and in fact I would be surprised if there was a single bow unit. This was on the small table size. The year before on the big table there were 2 bow armies (2 x EAP) of 27 which finished 14th and 16th. There was a Classical Indian – although this is more of an Elephant army which has some compulsory bows, which finished 5th.

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Re: SHOOTING

Post by hazelbark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:45 pm

paullongmore wrote: It takes a complete move to place Portable Obstacles. They must be placed within the 1st 3 turns of a game, and cannot be moved after placement. - not sure the first bit is a change presumably it means instead of having to do a CMT. As it takes a turn to place them and generously assuming that it means that players 1st 3 turns rather than the first 3 turns, if the first move is a double you should be able to get your MF to 24 inches (mid table). Cannot be moved after deployment is sensible. At first sight this makes PO so unusably poor you may as well just get rid of them.
I missed the first 3 turns restriction coming in. I think that is a mistake. It creates an incentive to table sit or run around and burn turns so your foe can't use these. I agree understand the once placed can't lift. It still can cause gamey reactions but has a logic. The other option which is likely undesirable is to have two levels of PO. One that has smaller effects and be lifted and moved and the other like stakes currently.

But I thinks this is a real fringe issue until the other more significant stuff gets set right.

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Re: SHOOTING

Post by hazelbark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:54 pm

What is the state of foot bow shooting in tournaments?

My recollection there are only a few things that people think may be over baked.
Janissaries
Immortals.
Support shooting.
Mixed foot shooters in certain Chinese lists.

Is there a real problem with foot shooters running forward and firing? Generally that mostly applies in the Benny Hill phase.

In short is the reduced movement a feature (although logical) in search of a problem that doesn't really exist?
I think in many ways ordinary foot bows and foot crossbow are in search of reason to exist that is not remedied here.

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