AARs

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ChrisTofalos
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Re: AARs

Post by ChrisTofalos » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:51 pm

You need another mechanism to allow HF (and probably others) a chance to be exploit their success. You also need something simple
This is an interesting proposal because currently it takes far too long to take advantage of routing an enemy unit and punching a hole in their line. What about allowing a unit which successfully dices to stop pursuing to turn 90 or 180 degrees when they do so (at the very least, if it's their turn)? It might help speed things up a bit.

Despite the above, I have to confess I'm getting quite confused about all these proposed changes. One minute it's HF moving 4MU, light spear armed LCh becoming far more potent than their 14 or so points value suggests and goodness knows what else, and the next a spanner is thrown in the works. It can be hard to keep up with for those not actually involved in play testing.

I re-started ancients with V2 about three years ago and, apart from the fact that, IMO, it generally takes a little too long to play, think it's a set which blows DBXX out of the water. The balance is just about right and mechanisms for movement and combat both simple and elegant. And I just prefer units of troops, rather than individual bases wandering around. Although I really like the idea of more impact dice and HF moving 4MU (since some MF could fight in closer order in the open, why should HF lag behind these?), too much tinkering could destroy it all. I don't want to have to start again with MeG (or what-have-you) in six months time...

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Re: AARs

Post by LEmpereur » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:55 am

ChrisTofalos wrote:Despite the above, I have to confess I'm getting quite confused about all these proposed changes. One minute it's HF moving 4MU, light spear armed LCh becoming far more potent than their 14 or so points value suggests and goodness knows what else, and the next a spanner is thrown in the works. It can be hard to keep up with for those not actually involved in play testing.

I re-started ancients with V2 about three years ago and, apart from the fact that, IMO, it generally takes a little too long to play, think it's a set which blows DBXX out of the water. The balance is just about right and mechanisms for movement and combat both simple and elegant. And I just prefer units of troops, rather than individual bases wandering around. ..... I don't want to have to start again with MeG (or what-have-you) in six months time...

I am Agree with this feeling... and really sad to see the path that takes my passion !


What is my choice today... tomorrow... to play Ancient/Medieval ?
- Art de la Guerre ? if I had to take this way, it had be done long time ago ! And I don't want to spend my time to nitpick over every base move !
- MeG ? 5 games... and not the same pleasure than play FoG V2 ! It's a fact ! But if it must be the futur rule to drink beer with friend... perhaps, but I am not sure at all !
- FoG AM V3 ? What I read don't please me !
- What's else Georges ?

I will continue to play :
- Npow because this objective system is excellent for napoleonnic frendly game !
- FoG R becaure I love the FoG games system and the Renaissance rule is really good and quick ! Please gentlemen, don't touch it as you do on FoG AM ! Thanks you very much ! And this rule will certainly be play at my 2017 tournament !
- FoG AM V2 with my sparring partner of 20 years ! and if some others want to continue on this second version... it will be a pleasure to play with them ! Tournament ? Could be possible ?

Why I will not play V3 ?! As tell and write too many time... Yes I am boring !

Overall, the V3 proposed changes create exceptions and change the fundamentals... What makes the rule more complex and therefore less accessible. Globally all these changes could justify modification of the cost of troops and commanders... that are not expected !
Why this insistence on stripping the skirmishers, archers, superior and elite troops? Remember that this game is recommended in historical period!

Some good ideas have been proposed to speed up the game and do not required a V3!
Here 3 simple ideas :

1/ MU = 4cm !
2/ +1 impact dices for a similar second rank base !
3/ a general kill count as 1 army point lost, the CinC, 2 points !

I am really disappointed ... even sad !

Answer to question on the 3/ :
If 2 bases are the same in a column, the second rank one have 1 dice for impact, so if only 1 rank charging play 2 dices.
If 2 ranks or more play 3 dices.
Shooting support keep their dices for shooters at second or third rank !
Last edited by LEmpereur on Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ChrisTofalos
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Re: AARs

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:45 pm

3/ a general kill count as 1 army point lost, the CinC, 2 points !
Like the idea of that...

berthier
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Re: AARs

Post by berthier » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:11 pm

I like #3 and I think it will have a bit more of the effect we are looking for towards increasing the risk of loosing generals along with the change in the roll for generals to die.

Not sure I understand #2 and my French is worse than your English so no offense is intended.

While on the surface #1 might seem like the way to go, by making everything move faster, HF would then move just as slow as they move now relative to everything else. Granted it is not something I have played so I am speaking without an data to back up my thoughts.

ADLG is not my cup of tea so I agree with L'Empereur with his thoughts in general about FOG. I thought V1 was not broken and still think it provided a superior game than V2 but adjusted my playing style (and armies used on the table) to play the game.
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Re: AARs

Post by LEmpereur » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:11 pm

berthier wrote:I like #3 and I think it will have a bit more of the effect we are looking for towards increasing the risk of loosing generals along with the change in the roll for generals to die.
....
ADLG is not my cup of tea so I agree with L'Empereur with his thoughts in general about FOG. I thought V1 was not broken and still think it provided a superior game than V2 but adjusted my playing style (and armies used on the table) to play the game.
Thanks !.. :D
berthier wrote:...While on the surface #1 might seem like the way to go, by making everything move faster, HF would then move just as slow as they move now relative to everything else. Granted it is not something I have played so I am speaking without an data to back up my thoughts...
The move is well balanced in V2 between every troops... increase the HF move and not increase the others move is a false good idea ! If every troops move with a 4cm MU the balanced remain.
A lot of proposed changes increase or reduce the value of some troops... and I never heard about amending the budget... but do not change anything!
berthier wrote:...Not sure I understand #2 and my French is worse than your English so no offense is intended.
Sorry, I am not sure this was french ! :wink:

If 2 bases are the same in a column, the second rank one have 1 dice for impact, so if only 1 rank charging play 2 dices.
If 2 ranks or more play 3 dices.
Shooting support keep their dices for shooters at second or third rank !
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Re: AARs

Post by hazelbark » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:18 pm

berthier wrote: While on the surface #1 might seem like the way to go, by making everything move faster, HF would then move just as slow as they move now relative to everything else. Granted it is not something I have played so I am speaking without an data to back up my thoughts.
What this does do is make the board functionally smaller as you've increased the speed of everyone by 60%. Now that would give LH a distance of over 11 inches, which creates a real risk factor on evades. If you did this it would be an argument to go back to the power of v1 shooty cav and LH because the threat of them being driven off the table would be increased.

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Re: AARs

Post by berthier » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:55 pm

hazelbark wrote:
berthier wrote: While on the surface #1 might seem like the way to go, by making everything move faster, HF would then move just as slow as they move now relative to everything else. Granted it is not something I have played so I am speaking without an data to back up my thoughts.
What this does do is make the board functionally smaller as you've increased the speed of everyone by 60%. Now that would give LH a distance of over 11 inches, which creates a real risk factor on evades. If you did this it would be an argument to go back to the power of v1 shooty cav and LH because the threat of them being driven off the table would be increased.
Did not necessarily mean it would be a bad way to go and going back to more of a V1 game IMHO is not necessarily a bad thing.

If it shortens the table for everyone, it would speed things up to some extent.
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Re: AARs

Post by LEmpereur » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:29 am

berthier wrote:
hazelbark wrote:What this does do is make the board functionally smaller as you've increased the speed of everyone by 60%. Now that would give LH a distance of over 11 inches, which creates a real risk factor on evades. If you did this it would be an argument to go back to the power of v1 shooty cav and LH because the threat of them being driven off the table would be increased.
Did not necessarily mean it would be a bad way to go and going back to more of a V1 game IMHO is not necessarily a bad thing.

If it shortens the table for everyone, it would speed things up to some extent.
Increased of 60% the speed of every troops, speed the game as far seems to want a lot of players...

And answer to an other wish... reduce power of skirmichers and especially light horses... run faster... get out faster !

And make HF move to the middle of the table faster... lot of fast in one single simple modification ! 8)
In fact starting 30cm from the edge, they are at 30+24 =54, that to say 6cm from the middle of the table at the first move... for a foot army that have not lot of chance to get the initiative.
The few LH of this army can be with a general (it is already permited in V2 :twisted:) at 30+56=86cm from there own edge, 26cm over the Center! But will stop at 6MU of ennemi skirmisher... 37,5+24=61,5cm... and don't cross the middle if opposant match there deployement! so a single move is enought... 37,5+28=65,5cm!
They cross again the middle of the table, block the way of the ennemi and allow this general not usefull here to drive all HF to the 54cm as explain over... and don't need excentric rules to do not double move LH with a general not himself light rider !
Simple be simple !
For LF the same calculation give : 37,5+40=77,5cm and 37,5+20=57,5cm... with same result and conclusion !

And if... you say ? and if the horse rider give back the initiative to move first ? The footman choose a dense terain !

The foot army will be more playable ... if they have too ! And never forget this game is recommended in historical period!

Speed the game, keep the rules... but stay simple !

The bad idea in this times of split and changes is to want to do and be the same than the others.
The différence is powerfull !
The imitation is the bad choice !

People playing Art de la Guerre (except some playing both because few players around) will not come back, the FoG System don't please them.

Players from both rules (FoG & AdG) who go playing MeG will make a third community but some will come back ! Trust me !

But if Mamy want the Kids come back home... she must keep the bedroom intact... or may be cleaner and aery but not different !

And bad news for those who want one Rule to rule them all... yes it's also, One Rule to find them... but especially One Rule to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
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Re: AARs

Post by bahdahbum » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:03 pm

I was not asked to test V3 so I suppose my opinion is not to be taken seriously :twisted: and so nobody test V3 in belgium so we stick to V2 with more and more people going to MEG and above all ADG .

So as wrote L' Empereur, the community will be split but there are 4 rules as there is still IMPETUS .

Some ADG players wanted my opinion about MEG as they seem ready to go from ADG to MEG but not FOGAM .

My advise is keep it simple and make it a quick game . that is what is asked ...above all keep it simple.

By the way, years ago I did organise 600 points tournaments and it worked rather well . 3 games a day !I remember we had to allow for some reduction of minima as to enable a player to play with a balanced army . :D

Hope FOGAM3 will be simple and quick but it is out of my hands :mrgreen:

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Re: AARs

Post by philqw78 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:52 pm

It is in the hands of about 6 people currently
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

bahdahbum
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Re: AARs

Post by bahdahbum » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:30 pm

One proposal : just throw away the +2 on the death roll for the winner of a fight . It will speed up things . The winner has still the advantage. he does not have to test morale :D

You might also consider reduce the +2 on death roll for bow to +1 ...that will make bowmen more challenging but perhaps a bit too strongh

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Re: AARs

Post by ChrisTofalos » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:06 am

Some ADG players wanted my opinion about MEG as they seem ready to go from ADG to MEG but not FOGAM .
Dangerous period looming (or already upon us) for FOG-AM. Too many controversial changes (such as effectively eliminating Steppes - etc) and an excellent and highly popular set of rules will be dead in the water.

Personally, I'd like to see an amendment sheet (called, say, V2.1) including about a dozen of the more popular proposed changes. Might be easier/quicker to play test and get into circulation and provide enough improvements to give the rules a much needed boost in popularity...

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Re: AARs

Post by LEmpereur » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:47 am

ChrisTofalos wrote:Dangerous period looming (or already upon us) for FOG-AM. Too many controversial changes (such as effectively eliminating Steppes - etc) and an excellent and highly popular set of rules will be dead in the water.

Personally, I'd like to see an amendment sheet (called, say, V2.1) including about a dozen of the more popular proposed changes. Might be easier/quicker to play test and get into circulation and provide enough improvements to give the rules a much needed boost in popularity...
Totally ungreed with you ! :|

The V3 that we see here is killing FoG AM ! Winter is coming and FoG will not survive it ! :(

Some changes could be done to accelerate the game... but a dozen is too much ! There are no need to touch to rules others than those who speed up the games !
Because it is what will kill the rules !

Here the change I propose :

1/ MU = 3 cm (4cm seems to much) !
2.1/ +1 impact dices for a similar second rank base !
--- If 2 bases are the same in a column, the second rank one have 1 dice for impact, so if only 1 rank charging play 2 dices.
--- If 2 ranks or more play 3 dices.
--- Shooting support keep their dices for shooters at second or third rank !
2.2/ 3 for heavy and scythed chariots
2.3/ 4 dices for the elefants (also against elefants... be simple !)
3/ a general kill count as 1 army point lost, the CinC, 2 points and every troops get out the table count as 2 points, also skirmishers !
4/ The death roll is done before the cohesion test and the base loss count for the 25% in the cohesion test !
5/ Broken troops over 12 MU of a general is destroyed at the end of the JAP and get only one rally test possible, if it fail it is detroy !
6/ No malus for infantry troops on the flank march tests (both tests) ! this point can hasten the game against "the bubble makers" !
What else ?

Simple and efficient !
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Re: AARs

Post by bahdahbum » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:17 pm

People will always agree or disagree with changes .

L'Empereur, at first you were more positive towards MEG . I still am very positive towards that new rule as it is rather quick, many interactions between players and even "poor" units have some chance to make hits on better units .

FOGAM is becoming to slow, too many special cases in the changes,...I might say cumbersome .

Also the timing is not good, V3 will be for 2017 but when ?

If the rules could be made easier, quicker and more interactive it would be nice . ( and some army lists should be revworked as well )

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Re: AARs

Post by LEmpereur » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:46 pm

bahdahbum wrote:...L'Empereur, at first you were more positive towards MEG...
Yes you are right ! But it was before playing this game... :(
bahdahbum wrote:... I still am very positive towards...
I am happy for you ! :D
bahdahbum wrote:...FOGAM is becoming to slow...
I play 4 games this WE at Rueil and I really appreciate my games !
Howewer if we can reduce the time to two an a half hours it will be even better !
bahdahbum wrote:...too many special cases in the changes,...I might say cumbersome...
I am agree with you and it is why I don't want all this changes !
bahdahbum wrote:...If the rules could be made easier, quicker and more interactive it would be nice . ( and some army lists should be revworked as well )
I don't think it is necessary to change anything else than what could accelerate the game... Here the change I propose :

1/ MU = 3 cm (4cm seems to much) !
2.1/ +1 impact dices for a similar second rank base !
--- If 2 bases are the same in a column, the second rank one have 1 dice for impact, so if only 1 rank charging play 2 dices.
--- If 2 ranks or more play 3 dices.
--- Shooting support keep their dices for shooters at second or third rank !
2.2/ 3 for heavy and scythed chariots
2.3/ 4 dices for the elefants (also against elefants... be simple !)
3/ a general kill count as 1 army point lost, the CinC, 2 points and every troops get out the table count as 2 points, also skirmishers !
4/ The death roll is done before the cohesion test and the base loss count for the 25% in the cohesion test !
5/ Broken troops over 12 MU of a general is destroyed at the end of the JAP and get only one rally test possible, if it fail it is detroy !
6/ No malus for infantry troops on the flank march tests (both tests) ! this point can hasten the game against "the bubble makers" !
What else ?

Simple and efficient !
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