Commanded Shot - proposal

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nikgaukroger
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Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:08 pm

After some discussion "in another place" we have concluded that it is time to put forward a concrete proposal based on the discussions to date. As part of this I have unstickied the original post so that this one replaces it in the stickies section - however, it still exists in the normal posts section so the discussion isn't lost.

NB - this is still a proposal and up for debate, it is not yet finalised.

The Proposal

Commanded Shot are bought on a per BG basis and are represented by a marker attached to the BG - which mounted can get them is to be detailed for each list so that they can only be bought for the type of troops that had them historically.

The marker is placed with the BG in the same way that a Regimental Gun marker is (i.e. centre base of the front rank of the BG or players choice of which if 2 bases apply).

The BG gets to shoot with 1 die at Musket range with PoA modifiers as Musket with the exception of those in the Huguenot list which shoot as Arquebus. The shooting base is the one the marker is with.

Impact and Melee PoA + as currently stated in the rules.

If the BG with the Commanded Shot are = PoA in the Impact phase they get an extra dice in the same way that Regimental Guns work.

The mounted BG moves at MF rate or its usual mounted rate for the terrain it is in whichever is the slower. The BG counts as mounted troops and can, therefore, make 3 moves when appropriate.

The BG can voluntarily "discard" its Commanded Shot at any time and move faster than the restricted rate, in which case the marker is removed and the BG cannot gain the benefits for the rest of the game. The marker (and benefits) are also removed if the BG charges, pursues, or breaks.

Points cost is per BG (this is very much a first stab and used Regimental guns as a bench mark). If Poor 7 points for Horse, 11 for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Average 9 points for Horse, 13 for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Superior 12 points for Horse, 18 points for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Elite 14 points for Horse, 21 points for Determined Horse or Cavaliers.
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by timmy1 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:26 pm

Nik

Thanks.

Fine with that. Can you clarify 'Impact and Melee PoA + as currently stated in the rules'? Currently it applies Protection to the files it is adjcent to. Does this mean that it does not protect the file it is in front of but would protect the next file in the same BG and one in the adjacent BG if it is in front corner to front corner contact with the file the CS is in front of?

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:53 pm

Sorry, should have made it clear.

The BG with commanded shot would count any base as Protected.
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by timmy1 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:56 pm

Then I agree completely.

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by madaxeman » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:24 pm

Points values feel a little spicy at first glance, but the rest is OK.

The overall effect is a combination of:

- kinda like making troops one morale grade better, but not really as it only kicks in if you lose
- some irritating but desultory shooting that will at best get 1 or 2 shots in.
- a small advantage in impact, which only kicks in when the first (and probably more significant) advantage isn't going to apply anyway.

You now also don't get an extra unit to add to your break point, and when you "leave it behind" its gone forever

I'd be benchmarking points as being equal to "a weapon class or morale grade plus a smidge more", not against Reggie guns which improve shooting and melee of units who are already shooting many times each game anyway.
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:18 am

So your points suggestion would be?
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by DavidT » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:33 am

The Proposal

Commanded Shot are bought on a per BG basis and are represented by a marker attached to the BG - which mounted can get them is to be detailed for each list so that they can only be bought for the type of troops that had them historically.
This seems fine
The marker is placed with the BG in the same way that a Regimental Gun marker is (i.e. centre base of the front rank of the BG or players choice of which if 2 bases apply).
I would prefer to use a marker (a normal base of musketeers) to the side so that it looks right. But there should be no reason why I can't do this as it would just have the same effect. They can be moved to the back if they need to be moved out of the way.
The BG gets to shoot with 1 die at Musket range with PoA modifiers as Musket with the exception of those in the Huguenot list which shoot as Arquebus. The shooting base is the one the marker is with.
The firepower seems to be very limited which will have negligible effect (probably 2 shots at most needing 5 to hit with almost no chance of causing a morale test). Hardly worth the effort. What about using two markers, one behind each file of cavalry (or for those who prefer things to look right, two markers/bases placed to the side of the unit). Both of these could then shoot. And what about Gustav's regimental guns? Is this to be another element of historical accuracy sacrificed for simplicity.
Impact and Melee PoA + as currently stated in the rules.
OK with this, however, it will rarely come into play as commanded shot will generally be deployed with armoured pistol/pistol horse.
If the BG with the Commanded Shot are = PoA in the Impact phase they get an extra dice in the same way that Regimental Guns work.
This would be OK.
The mounted BG moves at MF rate or its usual mounted rate for the terrain it is in whichever is the slower. The BG counts as mounted troops and can, therefore, make 3 moves when appropriate.
I like this. The ability to make three march moves would have helped my Lutzen refights.
The BG can voluntarily "discard" its Commanded Shot at any time and move faster than the restricted rate, in which case the marker is removed and the BG cannot gain the benefits for the rest of the game. The marker (and benefits) are also removed if the BG charges, pursues, or breaks.
Fine with this.
Points cost is per BG (this is very much a first stab and used Regimental guns as a bench mark). If Poor 7 points for Horse, 11 for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Average 9 points for Horse, 13 for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Superior 12 points for Horse, 18 points for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Elite 14 points for Horse, 21 points for Determined Horse or Cavaliers.
This is the hard part and will depend on their effectiveness. The proposed costs would appear too high for the original proposal, but if more shooting was permitted, they might be more reasonable.

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by madaxeman » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:42 am

nikgaukroger wrote:So your points suggestion would be?
Roughly the equivalent of a morale grade plus a bit more.
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:28 am

madaxeman wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:So your points suggestion would be?
Roughly the equivalent of a morale grade plus a bit more.

Give us numbers you lazy git :lol:
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by kevinj » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:01 am

Upgrading a BG of Horse from Average to Superior (currently) costs 12 points. That's more than our original thought, so I don't think it's what you meant.

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:44 am

OK, as we don't appear to have any great screams of outrage at this I would like to think that this will be what is implemented - although I'd say that the actual points cost is still open for discussion.

Can we, therefore, just move onto looking at this bit in a bit more detail.
nikgaukroger wrote: Commanded Shot are bought on a per BG basis and are represented by a marker attached to the BG - which mounted can get them is to be detailed for each list so that they can only be bought for the type of troops that had them historically.
My initial feeling here is that the troops who can get the Commanded Shot will be those mounted in the Core Troops section of their list (for lists which currently has Commanded Shot in them) who have an Impact capability - the exception being ECW Parliamentarians whose Horse with carbine would be allowed.

How does that sound?
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by donm2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:10 am

Would it add too much of a complication to have them add to an armies BG total?

They currently add to the numbers, but in the proposals we appear to all agree with, they do not.

I also think if you discard them, this should have a negative effect.

Don

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by madaxeman » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:19 am

donm2 wrote:Would it add too much of a complication to have them add to an armies BG total?

They currently add to the numbers, but in the proposals we appear to all agree with, they do not.

I also think if you discard them, this should have a negative effect.

Don
As they (and their benefits) will now be lost once you decide to take the initiative and attack the enemy, counting them as broken at that point would seem a little harsh.

It would also increase the likelihood of a prononged mexican (TYW Mexican of course) standoff, which again isn't really desirable.
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by ravenflight » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:32 am

Agreed. We're makkng them like commanded shot, which while more difficult to orchistrate, do not reduce an army's bg count if lost post recovery from a rout.

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:37 am

ravenflight wrote:Agreed. We're makkng them like commanded shot, which while more difficult to orchistrate, do not reduce an army's bg count if lost post recovery from a rout.
I assume you mean like Regimental Guns :D
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:39 am

Having now run the proposal past Richard he thinks it is reasonable but has asked the following question:
rbodleyscott wrote: Do they need extra dice as well as the POA effects?
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by ravenflight » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:40 am

nikgaukroger wrote:
ravenflight wrote:Agreed. We're makkng them like commanded shot, which while more difficult to orchistrate, do not reduce an army's bg count if lost post recovery from a rout.
I assume you mean like Regimental Guns :D
Yes

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by vexillia » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:23 pm

donm2 wrote:Would it add too much of a complication to have them add to an armies BG total?
As they cost points they will in a way if this proposal is accepted:
nikgaukroger wrote:Army break point cannot exceed 1 point per 50 troop points of the army maximum size for that game - e.g. for an 800 point game the maximum army break point is 16. See http://bit.ly/2if5Z1q
Obviously for smaller, high value armies, they won't but it's not all or nothing.

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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by madaxeman » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:54 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:Having now run the proposal past Richard he thinks it is reasonable but has asked the following question:
rbodleyscott wrote: Do they need extra dice as well as the POA effects?
Definitely for the shooting, my gut feel says not for the combat as then the commanded shot-supported horse also become even more "better" in combat than any troops who are capable of charging them.
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Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:39 pm

FWIW this was my explanation to Richard:

"The extra dice is there to partially cover the current situation where the supporting commanded shot bases are actually a PoA up against mounted. That effect was probably a bit over stated and a single extra dice at Impact only is I think better.

For example it gives the Swedish cavalry at 1st Breitenfeld an Impact dice advantage (but in quality they'll be lower) to help them "bounce" the Catholic cuirassiers - and then they'll just be evens in Melee but inferior in quality.

That is my thinking anyway."
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