Dragoons - proposal

Moderators: hammy, Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Dragoons - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:25 am

Our official proposed change to dragoons is:

Any move that starts, ends or goes within 6MU of enemy is as MF. This includes evade moves.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by ravenflight » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:42 am

nikgaukroger wrote:Our official proposed change to dragoons is:

Any move that starts, ends or goes within 6MU of enemy is as MF. This includes evade moves.
Just to clarify, this would mean that (in open terrain) a BG of Dragoons that pass a cohesion test would be able to do a full move retire 3" (in 15mm) correct?

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:45 am

Yes. The move as MF is about move distance and how terrain affects them, otherwise they behave the same as now.

Wording would need to be bashed out to ensure this was clear 8)
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by ravenflight » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:48 am

nikgaukroger wrote:Yes. The move as MF is about move distance and how terrain affects them, otherwise they behave the same as now.

Wording would need to be bashed out to ensure this was clear 8)
I was fairly certain that's what you meant, but wanted to be sure before I put my extremely valuable seal upon your proposal.

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:51 am

If anyone wants to work out possible wording please feel free :D
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by timmy1 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:57 am

Proposal is fine by me. Not sure how you word it though.

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by kevinj » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:20 am

I think that the only thing that needs to be changed is the move distance. By retaining their definition as Light Troops they retain all of their existing move options, just more slowly.

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:29 am

kevinj wrote:I think that the only thing that needs to be changed is the move distance. By retaining their definition as Light Troops they retain all of their existing move options, just more slowly.
Indeed.

I unintentionally muddied the water by saying as MF - probably should have just said ny move that starts, ends or goes within 6MU of enemy is 3MU unless in Rough when it is 2MU.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

DavidT
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by DavidT » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:38 am

nikgaukroger wrote:
unless in Rough when it is 2MU.
Surely Dragoons would move 3 MU in rough when within 6MU of the enemy (the same as MF and most mounted).

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by kevinj » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:42 am

I think it should be 3 in Good or Rough and 2 in Difficult. Possibly make the mounted speeds equivalent to Cavalry/Horse unless there's a good reason they can go faster than those troops while mounted.

urbanbunny1
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:54 am
Location: London

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by urbanbunny1 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:48 am

Just checking, is the point of this to imply that Dragoons can move fast when they are out of 6" of troops, but once they get within 6", they move as MF?

IE, they dismount their horses to shoot?

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:49 am

DavidT wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
unless in Rough when it is 2MU.
Surely Dragoons would move 3 MU in rough when within 6MU of the enemy (the same as MF and most mounted).
Sorry, that should have been 2 MU in Difficult :oops:

3MU in Rough.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by kevinj » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:50 am

Just checking, is the point of this to imply that Dragoons can move fast when they are out of 6" of troops, but once they get within 6", they move as MF?

IE, they dismount their horses to shoot?
Yes, that's right.

DavidT
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by DavidT » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:51 am

OK
I'm happy :D

Jhykronos
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:52 pm

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by Jhykronos » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:09 am

nikgaukroger wrote:If anyone wants to work out possible wording please feel free :D
I'll give it a try.

---
On the move distance table (p54 and QRS), change the line for "Dragoons" to "Mounted Dragoons". Change the line for "Medium foot, mob" to "Medium foot, mob, Dismounted Dragoons".

Add a bullet in the section "Move Distances and Disorder" (p54-55):

A Battle group of Dragoons moves at the rate of Mounted Dragoons for all moves where no part of the move passes within 6 MU of an enemy battle group [,or if routing]. Otherwise, it moves at the rate of Dismounted Dragoons. Whichever movement mode is used does not effect the depiction or troop category of the Battle Group (i.e. they are still always treated as foot).
---

The routing thing is my own suggestion, not part of the original proposal.

charles
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1305
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:25 pm
Location: Chaniers 17
Contact:

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by charles » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:16 am

De l'utilisation du dragons, texte in french

"Après cette longue période de guerres, les troupes deviennent plus souples, plus mobiles ; les généraux, et Turenne surtout, les manient avec plus d’art, apportent dans leurs dispositions une très grande variété. Les batailles de 1674 et 1675 sont très remarquables à cet égard.

L’habitude est prise de prélever sur les régiments des piquets de 50 hommes, origine des futurs tirailleurs de bataillon, qui sont détachés en avant de l’armée, soit isolément, soit plutôt en troupes de quelques centaines d’hommes, pour remplir des missions spéciales, s’établir en des points importants et préparer par leur feu l’action du gros. Les régiments de dragons, qui combattent surtout à pied, jouent le plus souvent le rôle des tirailleurs en grandes bandes.

A Sinzheim, la force des deux armées consiste surtout en cavalerie, et les ennemis nous sont très supérieurs dans cette armé ; mais Turenne, ayant plus d’infanterie qu’eux, en profite pour se donner l’avantage. Il fait déloger les 1 200 fantassins ennemis qui occupent Sinzheim par ses 400 dragons et 1 500 hommes de divers régiments ; ces tirailleurs sont soutenus par tous les piquets et par les grenadiers de La Ferté. Une fois maître de la ville, il faut assurer le débouché de la cavalerie sur le plateau, opération délicate qui ne peut se faire que par un défilé très étroit. Nos dragons et les détachements d’infanterie s’établissent dans des vignes, derrière des haies et dans une abbaye. Le reste de l’infanterie est placé en divers postes, ou en corps, ou par détachements, selon la disposition du terrain, pour favoriser la cavalerie, lorsqu’elle viendra se mettre en bataille, et la soutenir lorsqu’elle sera chargée. Les grenadiers de La Ferté et les dragons se sont avancés au milieu du champ, couverts seulement. D’un petit rideau à portée des ennemis, avec lesquels ils escarmouchent de temps en temps. Turenne, voulant commencer à remplir le champ de bataille, y déploie ses trois régiments d’infanterie ; la cavalerie débouche et charge. La cavalerie des Impériaux a d’abord l’avantage, mais le feu de nos tirailleurs l’arrête ; après trois charges exécutées dans les mêmes conditions, les ennemis, décimés, se retirent en désordre ; nos cavaliers prennent l’offensive à leur tour et restent victorieux.

A Enzheim, Turenne envoie deux régiments de dragons, pied à terre, disputer à l’infanterie ennemie un bois qui devait fournir à l’une ou l’autre armée un bon point d’appui ; ces dragons sont successivement soutenus par plusieurs bataillons, et la lutte se prolonge, mais les nôtres ne peuvent profiter de leurs avantages. Se voyant menacés sur les flancs par la cavalerie ennemie, Turenne fait donc charger près de la lisière une partie de ses escadrons. Après une charge heureuse, ceux-ci ne peuvent se maintenir dans la plaine, où le feu de l’ennemi leur inflige des pertes trop sérieuses, et ils se rangent contre la lisière même du bois."
Denis

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by kevinj » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:33 am

Here's the Google translate version:

"After this long period of wars, the troops became more flexible and more mobile, and the generals, and Turenne above all, handled them with more art, bringing in their dispositions a very great variety The battles of 1674 and 1675 are very remarkable in this regard.

It is customary to take from the regiments pickets of 50 men, the origin of the future battalion sharpshooters, who are detached in front of the army, either singly, or rather in troops of a few hundred men, to fill Special missions, establish themselves at important points, and prepare by their fire the action of the bulk. The regiments of dragoons, who mainly fight on foot, play mostly the role of the tirailleurs in large bands.

At Sinzheim the force of the two armies consists chiefly of cavalry, and the enemy are very superior to us in this army; But Turenne, having more infantry than them, took advantage of it to give himself the advantage. He dislodged the 1,200 enemy infantry who occupied Sinzheim by his 400 dragoons and 1,500 men from various regiments; These tirailleurs are supported by all the stakes and grenadiers of La Ferte. Once master of the city, it is necessary to ensure the outlet of the cavalry on the plateau, delicate operation which can only be done by a very narrow defile. Our dragoons and infantry detachments settle in vineyards, behind hedges and in an abbey. The remainder of the infantry is placed in various posts, or in corps, or by detachments, according to the disposition of the ground, to favor the cavalry, when it comes to put itself in battle, and to support it when it is loaded. The grenadiers of La Ferte and the dragoons advanced in the middle of the field, covered only. A small curtain within reach of the enemy, with which they skirmish from time to time. Turenne, wishing to begin to fill the field of battle, deploys there his three regiments of infantry; The cavalry opens and charges. The cavalry of the Imperialists at first has the advantage, but the fire of our tirailleurs stops it; After three charges executed under the same conditions, the enemies, decimated, retire in disorder; Our cavalry take the offensive in their turn and remain victorious.

At Enzheim Turenne sent two regiments of dragoons on foot, to dispute with the enemy's infantry a wood which would furnish either army with a good point of support; These dragoons are successively supported by several battalions, and the struggle is prolonged, but our troops can not profit by their advantages. Seeing themselves threatened on the flanks by the enemy's cavalry, Turenne caused a portion of his squadrons to be loaded near the edge. After a happy charge, they can not maintain themselves in the plain, where the fire of the enemy inflicts upon them too serious losses, and they range themselves against the very edge of the wood. "

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:42 pm

Jhykronos wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:If anyone wants to work out possible wording please feel free :D
I'll give it a try.

---
On the move distance table (p54 and QRS), change the line for "Dragoons" to "Mounted Dragoons". Change the line for "Medium foot, mob" to "Medium foot, mob, Dismounted Dragoons".

Add a bullet in the section "Move Distances and Disorder" (p54-55):

A Battle group of Dragoons moves at the rate of Mounted Dragoons for all moves where no part of the move passes within 6 MU of an enemy battle group [,or if routing]. Otherwise, it moves at the rate of Dismounted Dragoons. Whichever movement mode is used does not effect the depiction or troop category of the Battle Group (i.e. they are still always treated as foot).
---

The routing thing is my own suggestion, not part of the original proposal.

Many thanks :D

I don't think the routing bit is needed though.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

Paulkit0
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:33 pm

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by Paulkit0 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:20 am

I note the routed Dragoons but - surely in pursuit (admittedly not that frequent) they'd also be back on their horses ? So might suggest [if routing or pursuing]. In the line above?

Jhykronos
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:52 pm

Re: Dragoons - proposal

Post by Jhykronos » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:45 pm

Paulkit0 wrote:I note the routed Dragoons but - surely in pursuit (admittedly not that frequent) they'd also be back on their horses ? So might suggest [if routing or pursuing]. In the line above?
Pursuing with Dragoons probably won't happen too often. I thought routing made sense to get the full move, but maybe the additional detail here isn't worth it.

Post Reply

Return to “FOGR Update”