Better Armour - proposal (updated)

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kevinj
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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by kevinj » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:17 pm

A reroll is the nearest we have to half a POA. Remember also the current proposal gives troops with better armour if they are otherwise at a negative POA.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:18 pm

kevinj wrote:A reroll is the nearest we have to half a POA. Remember also the current proposal gives troops with better armour if they are otherwise at a negative POA.
Which means for this scenario they are no different from the current rules.

To illustrate that using Dan's own example 8)

Side A has a combat PoA but side B does not, however, side B has better armour.

6 dice each
v1
Side A 6 needing 4s = average of 3 hits
Side B 6 needing 4s = average of 3 hits.

proposal
Side A 6 needing 4s = average of 3 hits
Side B 6 needing 4s = average of 3 hits
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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by hazelbark » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:35 pm

So I did NOT understand the proposal.
Better armor is a POA if you are down a POA.
If you are even or better on POAs when you go to consult armor you get a re-roll?

So better armor lets your put out more damage. :shock:

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:41 pm

hazelbark wrote: So better armor lets your put out more damage. :shock:

It always has done if it is moving you from a - PoA to no net PoAs.

It lets you take less damage if you move from no net PoAs to a + PoA.
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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by hazelbark » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:39 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
hazelbark wrote: So better armor lets your put out more damage. :shock:
It lets you take less damage if you move from no net PoAs to a + PoA.
But this would no longer be the case under the new proposal? Correct?

Not trying to be difficult. More trying to make sure I understand proposal.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by Jhykronos » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:52 pm

hazelbark wrote:So better armor lets your put out more damage. :shock:
No, worse armor lets the other guy do more damage to you :P

Like I said earlier, the logic can be worded to work either way.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:04 am

hazelbark wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
hazelbark wrote: So better armor lets your put out more damage. :shock:
It lets you take less damage if you move from no net PoAs to a + PoA.
But this would no longer be the case under the new proposal? Correct?

Not trying to be difficult. More trying to make sure I understand proposal.

Correct.

You will, on average, do more damage, but the enemy will not be affected in what they do if you have better armour.
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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by Vespasian28 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:03 pm

the enemy will not be affected in what they do if you have better armour.
So even if they win or draw more heavily armoured troops will take more casualties than previously which was, and remains, my bugbear about this as you know.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:21 am

Chatting to Richard about where we are on this he suggested that we may have been too quick to move on from the re-rolls idea and that there were other ways to tackle the "Flodden issue".
rbodleyscott wrote: How many such interactions are there in FOGR?

If not too many, you could keep the armour thing basically on rerolls, but tweak those specific interactions.

For example, you could make the HW POA count against pikes
So the question here is, as Richard asked, which are the interaction that are an issue with just re-rolls? We have English bills Vs Scots pike - any others?

BTW, for those who dislike the re-rolls causing more hits (and I can see why) the mechanism can be implemented so that troops facing better armour drop a re-roll level (it was actually the originally suggested version if you recall).
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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by jonphilp » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:48 am

Hi if we are looking at Flodden i.e. pikes v heavy weapon would it not be more historical to amend the POAS to be a+ For heavy weapons if pikes are not steady rather than play around with the better armour proposals. I know this proposal is causing concern/confusion dealing with POAS would be more simple especially during a game.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:32 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:Chatting to Richard about where we are on this he suggested that we may have been too quick to move on from the re-rolls idea and that there were other ways to tackle the "Flodden issue".
rbodleyscott wrote: How many such interactions are there in FOGR?

If not too many, you could keep the armour thing basically on rerolls, but tweak those specific interactions.

For example, you could make the HW POA count against pikes
So the question here is, as Richard asked, which are the interaction that are an issue with just re-rolls? We have English bills Vs Scots pike - any others?

BTW, for those who dislike the re-rolls causing more hits (and I can see why) the mechanism can be implemented so that troops facing better armour drop a re-roll level (it was actually the originally suggested version if you recall).

Any similar interactions?

Will make it easier if there aren't any :wink: :lol:
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by Vespasian28 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:36 pm

Any similar interactions?
Not that I can think of at the moment but the only reason Flodden came up is that we re-fought it a couple of times. Give me a couple of years and I will see how many other historical re-fights I can put together and report back :)
BTW, for those who dislike the re-rolls causing more hits (and I can see why) the mechanism can be implemented so that troops facing better armour drop a re-roll level (it was actually the originally suggested version if you recall).
I probably didn't pay enough attention to that as I was so opposed to changing armour at all so if you must then yes this would be better by far.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by kevinj » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:46 am

Whilst I can see that better armour reducing your opponents re-rolls rather than enhancing your own makes better thematic sense, what happens to Poor troops fighting better armoured opponents? Would they re-roll 5s and 6s?

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by benjones1211 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:24 pm

Why not, I think its better than the other way when you could have elites with general fighting someone with lower armour but otherwise equal rerolling 1-4 even though a 4 is a hit,
so they are not gaining any benefit.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by kevinj » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:29 pm

The Elites would get the advantage that they wouldn't need to commit their commander.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by Jhykronos » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:03 am

nikgaukroger wrote:Any similar interactions?
Can't think of too many more foot interactions that aren't mirror matchups (pike blocks vs pike blocks, etc.)

I did think of a mounted interaction we may want to keep an eye on:

Gendarmes Fully/Heavily Armored Heavy Lance, Sword
vs
Cavalry Armored/Unarmored Bow --- Sword

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:26 pm

So going with better armour dropping the opponent a re-roll level the proposal would be (I think):
Melee Table: Delete POA for better armour.

P.35

Section "Battle Group Quality Re-rolls":

Replace the bullet list and the first paragraph after with the following:

Quality Re-roll Scores

.......... 1,2,3
Elite troops can re-roll 1’s and 2’s
Superior troops can re-roll 1’s
Average troops re-roll no dice
Poor troops must re-roll 6’s
.......... 5, 6

A dice is only re-rolled once.


A commander fighting in the front rank of the battle group in close combat allows the close combat “to hit” dice (but not any other dice rolls) of that battle group to be one re-roll level higher.

If a base is in combat with an opponent which has Better Armour, and it is not a type that ignores Better Armour (see below), the Melee close combat “to hit” dice (but not any other dice rolls) of that base are one re-roll level lower. This is cumulative with the re-roll effect of a commander fighting in the front rank.

Types that ignore Better Armour:

• Shot
• Troops armed with Heavy Weapons
• Elephants
• War Wagons
• Protected Horse, Protected Determined Horse, or Protected Cavaliers
Additionally the Melee PoA for Heavy Weapon becomes:
against any except STEADY pike in 3 or more ranks, protected pike, protected shot or foot with bayonet.
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by spedders » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:52 pm

Doesn't address poor troops v better armour?

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by Vespasian28 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:55 pm

I thought Poor troops would re-roll 5's and 6's as mentioned above. The whole idea being to reduce hits against the better armoured opponent.

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Re: Better Armour - proposal (updated)

Post by DavidT » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:57 pm

spedders wrote:Doesn't address poor troops v better armour?
It does.
Poor troops facing better armour now re-roll 5s and 6s.

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