Early TYW Swedish armies

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nikgaukroger
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Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:31 am

A favour to ask those who use this army.

Could you have a look at how the current points suggestions and commanded shot suggestions affect the composition of the armies you have fielded please. What difference would they make in things like number of BGs.

It is one of the armies most affected by possible changes and is an iconic army so I'd like to take a rain check on how it would affect things.

Thanks.
Nik Gaukroger

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DavidT
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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by DavidT » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:28 pm

I currently have 20 different lists which I have used for my Swedes. :!:
I'll try to have a look at some of my favourites over the weekend to see what the impact is

nikgaukroger
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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:51 pm

Thanks :-)
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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by timmy1 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:24 pm

I doubt it would alter the number of BG rather it would change the number that are having Reg Guns or the quality / size of the BGs.

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by DavidT » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:43 am

Sorry for the long post.
I have used the points table as posted, although I do prefer the Imp Mtd 3, Hvy L/Pistol 2 and Lgt L 1 alternative. Unless noted otherwise, I field arty BGs in 2s and my Swedish Brigades have Reg Guns.

Having carried out this exercise, if the points change, the most important thing will be to produce a table to issue to everyone with the revised points costs for each troop type in each army list. Three is quite a bit of work in this, but if you want people to work out their own points for their favourite lists you will put people off big time.

Army 1
This is my cavalry version, with good attacking cavalry consisting of:
1 Sup Swedish Brigade
1 BG of Dragoons
1 or 2 med arty BGs
2 Sup CS BGs with Reg Guns
5 or 6 mtd BGs (Elite Hak Arm IM/P, 2 Sup Arm P/P DH, Sup HArm P/P Hse, Avg Unarm Carb/P Hse and possibly Avg Arm P/P Hse
Generals: GC and 2 TC
797 points, 12 BGs

The reduced cost of mounted gives me an extra 63 points to spend (including the 3 spare)
Removing the CS gives me 78 points to spend
Option 1 - This would give me an Avg Swedish Brigade and CS token with the 2 BGs of DH and the 2 units of Avg Hse (11 BGs).
Option 2 - Alternatively, I could get an extra 2 BGs of Sup DH using 1 CS token with only my Avg Hse if the CS turn out to be a waste of points under the new proposal.
So the proposed changes appear reasonable and give me options.
The problem with this army is that, under the proposed 6 bases of infantry for 1 base of arty, the original list is illegal, even with the minimum compulsory arty and Option 2 above would also be illegal. So realistically, 6 BGs of mounted is the most I could ever take with the Swedes if I want to go for quality mounted if that rule is introduced.

Army 2
This is my infantry version, with good attacking infantry and massed artillery to shoot it in. It consists of:
4 Superior Swedish Brigades
1 Average Swedish Brigade
1 BG of Dragoons
2 mtd BGs (1 Avg Arm P/P Hse and 1 Avg Unarm C/P Hse – the minimum)
1 BG of CS
3 BGs of med arty
Generals: GC and 2 TC
797 points, 12 BGs

The reduced cost of mtd gives me 7 points to spend (including the 3 spare).
Removing the CS gives me 16 points to spend
Option 1 – give CS tokens to both my Hse (11 BGs)
Option 2 – I could upgrade my P/P Hse to DH (11 BGs)
There are limited options with this army, but that is to be expected as it is infantry heavy and so should be relatively unaffected by the proposed CS/mtd points changes.
So relatively unaffected by the proposed changes, except for army size which reduces by 1 – Swedish armies are small as it is so getting smaller could be an issue.
The problem with this army is that, under the proposed 6 bases of infantry for 1 base of arty, the list will be illegal . So the only way to use the maximum arty is to take another Swedish brigade which means reducing the quality to get 2 superior brigades and 4 average.

Army 3
This is my top quality version of the army, so it is small. It consists of:
1 Elite Swedish Brigade
2 Sup Swedish Brigades
2 BGs of Sup CS
1 BG of arty
4 mounted BGs (Elite Hak Arm IM/P, Sup Arm P/P DH, Sup HArm P/P Hse, Avg Unarm Carb/P Hse)
Generals: GC and 2 TC
799 points, 10 BGs

The reduced cost of mtd gives me 45 points to spend (including the 1 spare).
Removing the CS gives me 44 points to spend
Option 1 - This would give me another Sup Swedish Brigade (9 BGs).
Option 2 - Alternatively, I could get an extra BG of Sup DH using 1 CS token with only my Elite Hakkapeliita (9 BGs).
The army gets even smaller although the number of effective BGs increases.

Army 4
This is a more balanced version of the army. It is hard to get a balanced version under the current rules as Avg Hse/DH are too weak, sup DH are overpriced and Swedish brigades are expensive. It consists of:
3 Sup Swedish Brigades
2 Avg Swedish Brigades (1 w/o Reg Gun)
1 Bg of Avg CS
1 BG of Dragoons
1 BG of med arty
3 BGs of mtd (Sup Arm P/P DH, Sup HArm P/P Hse, Avg Unarm Carb/P Hse)
Generals: GC and 2 TC
800 points, 11 BGs

The reduced cost of mtd gives me 24 points to spend.
Removing the CS gives me 16 points to spend
Option 1 - This would give me another BG of Avg P/P Hse (11 BGs).
Option 2 - Alternatively, I could get an a CS token for all 3 units of mounted (10 BGs).
This doesn’t seem unreasonable.

I have an army which maximises the cavalry – but this meant taking a lot of Avg P/P Hse which was never a good choice. It may be a more viable option now.
I have a maximum infantry version with 7 Swedish Brigades (lots more average, fewer Reg Guns and 3 TC), however the proposed points and CS changes will have little effect on it. The change to Autobreak will make it tougher.

nikgaukroger
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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:01 am

DavidT wrote:Sorry for the long post.
Very useful - much appreciated :D
Nik Gaukroger

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If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by spedders » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:55 am

On the basis I generally only ever use 1 BG of CS at 800 it probably makes little difference. It will make quite a big difference at 700 points for 25mm armies where CS is used to bulk out the BGs and the reduction in mtd costs won't help as most people use minimum anyway. I could see it reducing armies from 12 to 10 BGs.

This also depends on whether you take away the compulsory minimum CS. At your present points proposal if retained you would have to spend an extra 2 points compared to the minimum CS, not much but we all know how often you are one point short!

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by kevinj » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:26 am

Having carried out this exercise, if the points change, the most important thing will be to produce a table to issue to everyone with the revised points costs for each troop type in each army list. Three is quite a bit of work in this, but if you want people to work out their own points for their favourite lists you will put people off big time.
Once the points are nailed down I'll work on an Excel spreadsheet for army building. We'll also make sure that Alain who creates the Little Army Designer is aware of the changes.

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:56 am

Any more examples/thoughts on how the current proposed changes will affect this army's makeup on the table?
Nik Gaukroger

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Jhykronos
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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by Jhykronos » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:11 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:Any more examples/thoughts on how the current proposed changes will affect this army's makeup on the table?
Checking the lists on the Madaxeman Wiki, the trends for existing armies are:

1. Minimize determined horse
2. The most popular horse unit to take beyond the minimum is another unit of karbinryttare (probably to go with the commanded shot), followed by the Cuirassiers and the Finnish Impact Mounted.
3. Commanded shot almost inevitably have regimental cannon, except in the smaller (<800 point) lists.

I would expect under the new system, the Swedish player would need to revamp their mounted wing... commanded shot units are no longer an option and without them the carbine cavalry would be much more exposed. Determined horse (whether average or superior) are effectively the only way to go here, unless the Swedish player just wants to minimize his horse altogether. I'm not certain if the commanded shot markers would be a good buy for the points, but I do believe the list or rules should mandate or incentivize taking them, since they were a regular feature of the army.

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by DavidT » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:20 pm

Jhykronos wrote:
Checking the lists on the Madaxeman Wiki, the trends for existing armies are:

3. Commanded shot almost inevitably have regimental cannon, except in the smaller (<800 point) lists.
I believe that something needs to be done to represent this in the proposed CS changes. Additional points for an additional shooting dice possibly? Otherwise it is another element of history which goes by the wayside in the interests of 'simplicity'.
Jhykronos wrote:
I would expect under the new system, the Swedish player would need to revamp their mounted wing... commanded shot units are no longer an option and without them the carbine cavalry would be much more exposed.
My experience with the play tests is that the CS are actually quite useful (apart from shooting). At 4/8/12/16 points per BG for Poor through to Elite, the costs appear to be fairly close to the mark.
Jhykronos wrote:
Determined horse (whether average or superior) are effectively the only way to go here, unless the Swedish player just wants to minimize his horse altogether.
Under the new points, Superior Determined Horse are a good buy at 17 points (instead of 21), so I would expect to see these appearing now. At 14 points (instead of 15), the average version still aren't worth it. Possible 18 for Superior (3 points less than currently) and 13 for Average (2 points less than currently) would be better.
Jhykronos wrote:
I'm not certain if the commanded shot markers would be a good buy for the points, but I do believe the list or rules should mandate or incentivize taking them, since they were a regular feature of the army.
See point above. I believe that two markers should be compulsory for a Swedish list.

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by Jhykronos » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:36 pm

DavidT wrote:I believe that something needs to be done to represent this in the proposed CS changes. Additional points for an additional shooting dice possibly? Otherwise it is another element of history which goes by the wayside in the interests of 'simplicity'.
Don't really have any objection to Gustavan Swedish Determined Horse with Commanded Shot markers getting the option Regimental Gun markers as well (It -would- be quite expensive, and not a certain bet).
My experience with the play tests is that the CS are actually quite useful (apart from shooting). At 4/8/12/16 points per BG for Poor through to Elite, the costs appear to be fairly close to the mark.
I haven't seen the markers in action (there was one unit in the playtest report I have, but it never got into melee). Other players who have posted seem a bit lukewarm on their effectiveness.

Under the new points, Superior Determined Horse are a good buy at 17 points (instead of 21), so I would expect to see these appearing now. At 14 points (instead of 15), the average version still aren't worth it. Possible 18 for Superior (3 points less than currently) and 13 for Average (2 points less than currently) would be better.
The benefit for being superior mounted is much reduced from what it was. 5 points on a basis of 13 is a huge premium for rerolling 1's.
See point above. I believe that two markers should be compulsory for a Swedish list.
Yeah, I was commenting on this statement in the CS proposal thread:
nikgaukroger wrote: Might be worth thinking about whether we should take the minima out of the Early TYW Swedish in this suggestion, because with the commanded shot no longer being BGs it may be seen as an imposition and better left to a choice.
I'm not certain if a "standard feature" of an army should be optional. But at the same time, it should not be something widely viewed as wasted points (like the brigade surcharge).

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by jonphilp » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:29 pm

I was talking over the rule changes with a regular opponent who uses a Swedish army for FOGR. He comes to the table looking to try and recreate the way the Swedes fought on the battle field , on which he has a vast store of knowledge. Following his comments on commanded shot in particular I doubt he will take up any of the proposed changes apart from that on artillery. Hopefully we will refight one of the major TYW battles again this year, in the past the rules have always resulted in games "which felt right" in the way the went but he doubts that this will happen with the Swedish forces under the new rules. When we get a few more games in using the changes hopefully he will change his mind but I do follow his objections to how the commanded shot will not now follow how he feels they were used in the early years of the conflict.

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Re: Early TYW Swedish armies

Post by DavidT » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:13 pm

I Have run both Breitenfeld and Lutzen in the past using the current rules and they worked very well. The only issue I had was that the Commanded Shot appeared to slow the Swedish mounted attack down too much to match the timings of the historical battles. However, these battles did not consider points values which is an issue with certain troop types.

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