SCW Ebro - need ideas

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Retributarr
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Retributarr » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:32 pm

"To have Survived and come out Alive!":
I read most of the Posts here... and then decided to just stick with defending my side... [West-Side] of the River!. I played using the lowest-difficulty setting [Even-So... it was tough-enough!]... with a 'Unit-Complement' of...
***4-Core Tanks [2-Pzr-Ib & 2-Speciale' Tanks ] & 2-Italian Tanks [Most-recent model]
***4-Core Fighters [New-Messerschmitts] & 2-Italian Fighters
***3-Stuka Dive Bombers
***2-Strategic Bombers
***2-Recon armored scout cars
***6-10.5 mm Artillery Guns
***6-Italian Infantry
***2-horse drawn Anti-Tank-Guns
***1-Italian horse drawn Anti-Tank-Gun
***2 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Guns with the ability to use Anti-Tank implementation.

What I did was place as speedily as possible... was to position my Italian Infantry... 1 at each most-vulnerable looking bridge crossing... as well as 1-artillery gun with it.

Where there were 2-bridge passages at the same location... I also placed 1 of my Anti-Tank-Guns.

My 'Air-Units' were mainly deployed in the 2 most central 'Air-Fields on the map. Some cross air-support was possible doing it this way.

The best most experienced Tanks were dispersed at critical central locations... and the less experienced/capable Tanks were located or positioned on the north and south flanks. These Tanks were dispersed in as best a fashion as I could place them so that I would... be able to quickly relocate them to other hard pressed areas... if it became necessary!.

In two of the critical locations... where there were 2-Bridges... I also had the Gun-Barrels of my Tanks directly pointing at the Bridge... to summarily destroy all those who dared to cross.

[Never mind the Recon or other Tanks destroyed by my certain-particular 'Bush-Wacker-Tank'... it also destroyed 6 or more enemy infantry units that tried to cross]

On occasion I had to redeploy or shift my units [Usually fast moving Tanks] around to adapt to the changing conditions... such as with the 2-Lightly defended locations where I was not able to provide adequate defenses... at those bridges.

It was a rather longish and somewhat tortuous boring struggle... as I only had 2 or even 3 serious breaches of my defence network... including the downing of 20-24 enemy aircraft.

The enemy artillery barraging was intense!... but did not usually result in serious losses to my units... so!... keep your Artillery Batteries as far away from enemy gun-fire as you can.

I got through the 35 turns on my 1st-attempt!.
Last edited by Retributarr on Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

P5138
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by P5138 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:45 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:32 pm
I got through the 35 turns on my 1st-attempt!.
This seems to be a mission where the lowest difficulty might be a little harder in some ways than other difficulties. I wonder if that means "Race Against Time" is easier because it will cut the mission off 5 turns sooner.

On General difficulty, it's 30 turns.

dalfrede
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by dalfrede » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:27 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:32 pm
***3-Stuka Dive Bombers
***2-Strategic Bombers
Five mistakes right there.

Strats are little use in a defensive scenario. They need fighter cover and don't do much damage.

A Stuka cost twice the prestige of a He123. A He123[13] does as much damage as a Stuka[10] and costs less to repair.
This is the only scenario where my TB took much damage, so the first place I noticed the cost.
In the Beta used Stukas and stopped using elite for them mid scenario.

I had 4 tanks deployed, one in the North helped defend crossings 2 & 3.
One followed my Allies across the river in the southwest.
The other two served mainly as target practice for AI artillery and planes.

Managed to hold 8/9 at turn 30, only missing #4 [Asco], so one should be able to get the bonus without a superTank clearing the field.
In the south I mainly supplied AA, Art, and Air support. They not only held on but took names as well.

If you start with 4 turns of 'AI attack' they all will get to the south to do the dirty work.
It does sacrifice a few Nationalist Infantry units, but they didn't have much of a chance anyway.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

SineMora
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by SineMora » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:41 pm

P5138 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:45 pm
This seems to be a mission where the lowest difficulty might be a little harder in some ways than other difficulties. I wonder if that means "Race Against Time" is easier because it will cut the mission off 5 turns sooner.
Yes, with Guderian on the last few waves barely have time to activate before the scenario is over, so if you were struggling to contain the Republicans you'd probably welcome it. I first played the campaign with Guderian on in the beta and some scenarios do become easier that way, though on the other hand you miss out on a lot of potential salvage. It breaks the campaign to use the modifier though so I wouldn't recommend it (defensive scenarios will all end in a soft lock so you'll have to use the console to proceed).
Mildly pretentious Swede. Goes by Path on most platforms, including Steam.
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=596&t=98034 -- Generalissimus AAR (no Trophies / Heroes)

Retributarr
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Retributarr » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:59 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:27 pm
Retributarr wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:32 pm
***3-Stuka Dive BombersRet: I haven't tried the He123's... maybe next time!]
***2-Strategic Bombers [Ret:Ohhh!...Contraire'... Strategic-Bombers... I find are very-good for suppressing enemy Anti-Aircraft weaponry... thus... if you have targets you wish to bomb nearby these Flak-Units... this will then decidedly reduce the suppression and also damage that your Bombers will then sustain!]
Five mistakes right there.

Strats are little use in a defensive scenario. They need fighter cover and don't do much damage.

A Stuka cost twice the prestige of a He123. A He123[13] does as much damage as a Stuka[10] and costs less to repair.

Vorskl
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Vorskl » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:54 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:27 pm
Retributarr wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:32 pm
***3-Stuka Dive Bombers
***2-Strategic Bombers
Five mistakes right there.

Strats are little use in a defensive scenario. They need fighter cover and don't do much damage.

A Stuka cost twice the prestige of a He123. A He123[13] does as much damage as a Stuka[10] and costs less to repair.
This is the only scenario where my TB took much damage, so the first place I noticed the cost.
In the Beta used Stukas and stopped using elite for them mid scenario.

I had 4 tanks deployed, one in the North helped defend crossings 2 & 3.
One followed my Allies across the river in the southwest.
The other two served mainly as target practice for AI artillery and planes.

Managed to hold 8/9 at turn 30, only missing #4 [Asco], so one should be able to get the bonus without a superTank clearing the field.
In the south I mainly supplied AA, Art, and Air support. They not only held on but took names as well.

If you start with 4 turns of 'AI attack' they all will get to the south to do the dirty work.
It does sacrifice a few Nationalist Infantry units, but they didn't have much of a chance anyway.
Could you please load your game at a few different turns and post printscreens of your deployment? I dont know how can you survive in passive defense with 122mm and 152mm Soviet guns killing you from high hills across the river. I had to do tank raids to eliminate these guns. But then there is a never-ending wave of Soviet tanks, and planes and infantry. That is the only scenario I had to ration $ on repairs.

Kerensky
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Kerensky » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:12 pm

I don't think strategic bombers is a mistake. At 1 slot for 12 strength, they are basically flying artillery. Stuka does kill damage, Ju86 does suppression damage. If a unit is inside an encirclement, that suppression damage is permanent and better than kill damage, because it means more units to force into surrender.

My plan, from the other thread:



This scenario is definitely not for the faint of heart, doubly so for the highest difficulty setting (without external modifiers like Manstein +5 str). I can clear normal Ebro on Colonel just fine, but when I beat it on Generalissimus I definitely had to settle for minimum objectives and not full main and bonus objectives.

In future, yea probably this scenario will get toned down a bit, so more players can finish out the DLC with less of a struggle.

But until then, and for what I personally did on Generalissimus...

Go aggressive at start. I deployed everything I had, all Condor Legion and all my Italian CVT (aircraft and tanks) to the northern sector. Completely smash the lead Republican elements, and then sweep my way south forming huge encirclements as I went. This has the double effect of chopping down entire waves of Republican units wholesale, and also shoring up your prestige levels which is really low with this difficulty cutting out 80% of your income.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcIKFS-Ekf8

I attack as hard and fast as I can, to delete as many of those hill mounted artillery pieces that are bombarding the length of the Ebro. Sooner or later, I have to give up the offensive, because reinforcement waves are in danger of encircling me. But you can clear at least half the map of these static artillery positions before reinforcement waves become too problematic and you need to fall back and defend wherever they are launching new attacks towards.

To get your Nationalists in the rear to move forward, just set them to 'attacker' for the first few turns of the scenario. Once they are close enough to the Ebro itself, swapping them to Defender will buy you a ton of time while the Republicans try to force their way across the various points of the Ebro.

In the end, I completely swept the Northern half of the map clean. But I got overrun so badly in the South, the enemy starting driving up and took the deep mountain Victory Hex.

While they were doing that, I was more than able to maintain control of the Northern Clusters of VHes, and I even did some limited counterattacking to regain some of the central and lower Ebro Victory Hexes. Ended with 5/9 VH... which after patch should read 5/10.

Image

I use few simple character traits too. Killer Team + Trophies of War.

dalfrede
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by dalfrede » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:03 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:54 pm
Could you please load your game at a few different turns and post printscreens of your deployment? I dont know how can you survive in passive defense with 122mm and 152mm Soviet guns killing you from high hills across the river. I had to do tank raids to eliminate these guns. But then there is a never-ending wave of Soviet tanks, and planes and infantry. That is the only scenario I had to ration $ on repairs.
I switched to Colonel just for this battle.
I used 203mm Art with Lethal Hero + TB to take out 2x northern Art.
I did not get the bonus

As posted elsewhere here is my deployed army
Pz1 1485, Pz1 1670, Pz2 748
Verdeja 2022, Sd231 2390, Sd231 1300
37mmPk 567, 37mmPk 187
105mm 1152, 105mm 1957, 105mm 1147
122mm 1137, 203mm 2019[Lethal],
20mmFk 629, 20mmFk 1513, 20mmFk 443,
20mmFk 204, 20mmFk 524,
Me109 1638, Me109 1301, Me109 1787
Me109 1241, Me109 1715
He123 978, He123 2500, He123 1037
He70 549

Aux units
4x it inf
3x It AT
1x G50
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There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

dalfrede
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by dalfrede » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:05 pm

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There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

dalfrede
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by dalfrede » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:07 pm

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There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

Patrat
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Patrat » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:31 am

I just posted this on steam, but I guess it won't hurt to repost it here.


I just finished Ebro on my generalissimo playthrough.

What a bloodbath!!!

I went on the offensive immediately and forced crossings in the center and north center in order to pincer the enemy artillery in the hills.

It was bloody getting over the river, but once I had secure footholds, my plan worked more or less as intended. After killing or capturing the enemy in the pocket, one of my groups went north to surround and eliminate the enemy on the north end of the map. My other group drove south, killing or capturing as it went.

After I finished off the enemy in the north , my northern group drove south. Some reinforced my units on the east side of the river. Others headed south to the west of the river to capture the southern victory hexes that the enemy had seized.

My drive south to the east of the river was like the battle of Kursk. My armoured wedge slowly grinding down the enemy. Eventually it broke through. But it was to late to really effect the battle for the southern victory hexes. Having to divert troops back north to deal with a enemy force that spawned in the north and temporarily took one of the northern victory hexes didn't help.

Long story short, I took all the victory hexes around turn 25. Then held on through my 30th turn. On the enemy's 30th turn, it retook one of the southern victory hexes that I couldn't really fortify because the nationalist troops were blocking me.

Rather frustrating, to say the least. Lol

I was down to around 6k prestige after the battle. I started with about 12k because I didn't give up half my prestige to buy commendation points. I figured I would need all the prestige I could get. And I was right.


Like I said. It was a bloodbath.



PS. I should mention that I had the auxiliaries trait, which along with the Italian auxiliaries, gave me a rather large army. I believe I had 60 slots for the condor legion and 52 auxiliary slots.

The enemy airforce was annoying, but I had lots of AA and six 109 fighters.
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)

Vorskl
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Vorskl » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:07 pm

Patrat wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:31 am
I just posted this on steam, but I guess it won't hurt to repost it here.


I just finished Ebro on my generalissimo playthrough.

What a bloodbath!!!


Like I said. It was a bloodbath.

PS. I should mention that I had the auxiliaries trait, which along with the Italian auxiliaries, gave me a rather large army. I believe I had 60 slots for the condor legion and 52 auxiliary slots.

The enemy airforce was annoying, but I had lots of AA and six 109 fighters.
Thanks man, please post your core here.
A common tactics move I read accross the posts - you MUST cross the river and clear Repb arty in your first turns or you'll be dead. What differs though is following actions. I resorted to passive defense and was almost squeezed out; it appears you kept steamrolling and pressing Repb down the map.

Patrat
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Patrat » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:30 am

This was my core.

TANKS
7- T26
1- Verdeja
3- M11/39 aux.

RECON
1-231
1- UNL-35

ANTI TANK
2- 45 mm M1932
1- 47/32 M35 aux.

ARTILLERY
6- 122 mm
1- 152 mm

ANTI AIRCRAFT
6- 2 cm Flak30 aux.
2- 88s

6- Italian infantry aux. No trucks.

AIR
6- Me 109s aux.
1- Stuka
1- He70
1- He70 aux.

After reinforcing and buying everything I had 9336 prestige. I finished with about 5k after repairing my core.

I did keep steam rolling as you mentioned. But that last wave of Republicans really cost me dearly. I probably should of quit steam rolling sooner and dug in, covered by my AA and AT, and just let the remaining enemy artillery pound me the last few turns.

Also, I should of bought trucks for my Italian infantry. Some of them had a long walk from the top of the map to the far south. Lol
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)

Tassadar
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Tassadar » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:14 pm

Patrat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:30 am
Also, I should of bought trucks for my Italian infantry. Some of them had a long walk from the top of the map to the far south. Lol
Good point here. I bought it for my aux Italians and while at first it seemed I wasted some prestige, it soon proved invaluable, as things get hot really quickly and getting them to the river a few turns early was critical.

Vorskl
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Vorskl » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:27 pm

Tassadar wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:14 pm
Patrat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:30 am
Also, I should of bought trucks for my Italian infantry. Some of them had a long walk from the top of the map to the far south. Lol
Good point here. I bought it for my aux Italians and while at first it seemed I wasted some prestige, it soon proved invaluable, as things get hot really quickly and getting them to the river a few turns early was critical.
Thanks for sharing the core. I like the idea of buying fighters as aux units - they are quite cheap so it's ok to buy them again and again, especially if they're only used to finish the killing after 88 do the main job. I am replaying SCW and currently 1 scenario away from Ebro - will try a few ideas there. It appears that mobility is ultimately important, so truck + self-propelled AT should be a priority.

Patrat
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Patrat » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:05 am

Vorskl wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:27 pm
Tassadar wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:14 pm
Patrat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:30 am
Also, I should of bought trucks for my Italian infantry. Some of them had a long walk from the top of the map to the far south. Lol
Good point here. I bought it for my aux Italians and while at first it seemed I wasted some prestige, it soon proved invaluable, as things get hot really quickly and getting them to the river a few turns early was critical.
Thanks for sharing the core. I like the idea of buying fighters as aux units - they are quite cheap so it's ok to buy them again and again, especially if they're only used to finish the killing after 88 do the main job. I am replaying SCW and currently 1 scenario away from Ebro - will try a few ideas there. It appears that mobility is ultimately important, so truck + self-propelled AT should be a priority.
Im thinking that next time I play the scenario I'm going to take 2 less Italian infantry and 2 more of the excellent italian tanks.

Most of the terrain on the other side of the river is flat, so I needed tanks more than infantry there.
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)

Tassadar
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Tassadar » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:10 am

Patrat wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:05 am
excellent italian tanks.
How things can quickly change depending on the campaign era. I doubt anyone will be linking the word "excelent" with Italian aromur in 1941 Africa scenarios anymore (an this comes from someone who likes the Italian land vehicles and planes much). :)

Patrat
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by Patrat » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:16 pm

Italy had the misfortune to rearm to early. Their stuff was halfway decent by mid 30s standards. But by the eve of ww2 it was becoming obsolete and Italy could not afford to replace it.

Those good Italian tanks in the game, are actually a little early if im not mistaken. I don't think they were developed in time for Spain.
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)

o_t_d_x
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by o_t_d_x » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:10 pm

I play FM - no pos traits - inapt logistics - no overstrenght (but no iron man like in the main campaign - i dont like to loose again because of an ai fool) and in Spain i use heroes.

On EBRO I see only 2 problems: the enemy artillery and my prestige. (if you use pos traits prestige is no prob - you will need 3500 better 4500 because this massed arty and air attacks will cost you) If you dont have enough prestige you can sell heroes.


At the beginning i missed the chance to cross the river soon and kill the arty. So i focused my arty (5 105mm) and my stukas to kill all artys in the north. This took some time, because the ai seems to have 10000000000000000000 prestige.
Enemy air force seems to be unlimited too, even if they loose 2-4 fighter groups per round. (2 8,8 on hills really help and 3-4 BFs)

Of course the stupid allied ai blocked my way often: Infantry nb. 7, never moved just fought even with attack order, so i couldnt take the city without bleeding. I REALLY NEED A KILL YOUR ALLY Button. Especially for this completly useless nationalist militias: The fight horribly, they die fast, but not fast enough to suck my precious prestige. Honestly: i would love to disband them all in round one. Even if i get zero prestige for it, just to get rid of these ai sucking obstacles. (i dont mean std. nat. infantry - only the militia - std. can at least fight and kill enemys)

My solution for allied ai scum:
Started with much prestige, so the ai idiots can suck it if they must. Then i ordered the ai fools to attack always, so they died fast and didnt interfere with my plans aaaand stopped sucking my precious prestige. (special thx to commandante vega for helping me in that regard :twisted:) But they killed this nasty air defence, that guarded the artillerys in the middle, so their death resulted in an additional bonus, that helped a lot. Nevertheless, killing these artys sooner with tanks, seems to be the smarter way. When new troops arrive i focus air defence and then arty, so ai never has arty near the vic points.

Without arty ai cant defeat entrenched italians that are guarded by my own arty. Problem solved.

nexusno2000
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Re: SCW Ebro - need ideas

Post by nexusno2000 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:14 pm

Tip: hold the AI allies back. Head over the river, kill LOTS of Republican units. When the Republicans capture a few southern VH then you can release your hordes of Nat inf. But as soon as they are no longer needed HALT THEM. This saves 4-5k prestige as opposed to letting them charge in from t1.
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