SCW - What's the Point?

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IceSerpent
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by IceSerpent » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:45 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:36 pm
Generalissimus, the 80% reduction setting.
How? I can barely stay afloat on FM with Trophies of War trait and actively trying to encircle/capture as many units as possible (the proceeds of which tend to get eaten up by "allies" before I even have a chance to reinforce core units).

Kerensky
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:52 pm

I dunno how to explain it past the video demonstration of mass encirclement mass surrender.

It should be noted that surrender of infantry, which doesn't produce any captured equipment, actually produces a huge amount of prestige. It's a pretty big windfall to snag a near full strength Brigada Mixta or International Brigade by forcing their surrender.

IceSerpent
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by IceSerpent » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:56 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:52 pm
It should be noted that surrender of infantry, which doesn't produce any captured equipment, actually produces a huge amount of prestige. It's a pretty big windfall to snag a near full strength Brigada Mixta or International Brigade by forcing their surrender.
That's good to know, thanks.

nexusno2000
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by nexusno2000 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:57 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:52 pm
I dunno how to explain it past the video demonstration of mass encirclement mass surrender.

It should be noted that surrender of infantry, which doesn't produce any captured equipment, actually produces a huge amount of prestige. It's a pretty big windfall to snag a near full strength Brigada Mixta or International Brigade by forcing their surrender.
Infantry with TRUCKS.

YUMMY.
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Plaid
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Plaid » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:03 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:10 pm
I can do the worst travesties imaginable when it comes to proper prestige management (Elite reinforcement DURING the mission *gasp*) and my prestige numbers still climb up instead of bottoming out. :shock:
Isn't elite reinforcement the only way to go? Losing star will result in worse combat results for very long time, it will burn 10 times more prestige than you "save" on using green replacements.
Green reinforcements seems to be flawed mechanic, only reason to use them is to create additional challenge.

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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:09 pm

Plaid wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:03 pm
Isn't elite reinforcement the only way to go? Losing star will result in worse combat results for very long time, it will burn 10 times more prestige than you "save" on using green replacements.
Green reinforcements seems to be flawed mechanic, only reason to use them is to create additional challenge.
Tiny fraction of my forces gets elite replacements all the time (talking like 10 slots worth in a CORE of 60 or more total slots)
At least half of my force gets regular replacements during the battle. These are units with high attrition that I can't afford to sideline.
The rest of my CORE are somewhere half way between always elite and never elite. When these units take damage during the natural course of a scenario... I just don't repair them. I use their overstrength buffers to keep them in the fight for longer periods of time. Going from 13 to 11 to 8 to 6 after many, many engagements.

And when that number gets too low, I sideline them. Just pull them back to garrison my rear areas while the rest of my forces complete whatever is left of the mission. And then in rolling over to next deployment phase, elite replacements are back on the menu.

I consider this pretty basic level prestige management, but the more I see people starving and running out of prestige in the Spanish Civil War content, the more I see it's not so obvious to everyone... :cry:

Altermann
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Altermann » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:41 pm

I'm sorry, but I did not pay Cdn $100 to get some little backwater Spanish Civil war DLC, which had very little to do with WW2. Yes it was a terrible conflict, as all Civil Wars are, but for this game it should have been included in the original game as a Campaign and NOT as a DLC, or, better idea, not even included at all!

So far, for me, this game in no way continues the great game that PC1 was/is, much the same way that Panzer General 2 did not continue the original PG game. What will the next DLC be?? The battle of Eritrea by the Italians, or the Anschluss of Austria, or perhaps the taking of Czechoslovakia! If this is all we can expect for the 2nd DLC this game will quickly take over a spot in my bookcase, to never be looked at again!

I had such high hopes for this game to expand PC1, and some things I do like, in this game, are things like Traits, giving orders to satellite armies, splitting units, to name a few, but it needs much more!

P5138
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by P5138 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:44 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:09 pm

Tiny fraction of my forces gets elite replacements all the time (talking like 10 slots worth in a CORE of 60 or more total slots)
At least half of my force gets regular replacements during the battle. These are units with high attrition that I can't afford to sideline.
The rest of my CORE are somewhere half way between always elite and never elite. When these units take damage during the natural course of a scenario... I just don't repair them. I use their overstrength buffers to keep them in the fight for longer periods of time. Going from 13 to 11 to 8 to 6 after many, many engagements.

And when that number gets too low, I sideline them. Just pull them back to garrison my rear areas while the rest of my forces complete whatever is left of the mission. And then in rolling over to next deployment phase, elite replacements are back on the menu.

I consider this pretty basic level prestige management, but the more I see people starving and running out of prestige in the Spanish Civil War content, the more I see it's not so obvious to everyone... :cry:
For me, the real difficult thing to do is Overstrengthening units. It is very hard for me to justify Overstrength for a unit instead of fielding another unit of more total core-wide HP for the same core slot cost, especially when core slots seem in such short supply. I know I'm hurting myself a little bit by not having some heavy hitters around, but I'd rather have more of a AAA umbrella than another 2 Panzer IBs in a unit. I'm starting to come around on it, but it's still a hard cost-reward balance to figure out.

adiekmann
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by adiekmann » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:13 am

Altermann wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:41 pm
So far, for me, this game in no way continues the great game that PC1 was/is, much the same way that Panzer General 2 did not continue the original PG game.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on several points.

First of all, PG2 was an awesome game! I played the origninal PG to death back when it came out on the only Mac I ever owned. It is fair to say that this general series, PG-PC2, are my favorite computer games of all time. I loved it so much that when I discovered that PG2 was going to be released only for Windows/PC, I actually bought a new PC! (Though that wasn't the only reason, it was a big one)! :D

I ended up loving PG2 even more. Now, to be honest, I hardly remember the vanilla campaign that came with it. However, I played the user made campaigns for ages afterwards that expanded the original in many new ways. This wasn't just about lengthening the vanilla campaign, but also adding lots of scenarios to cover battles that weren't usually covered, both fictional an historical.


What will the next DLC be?? The battle of Eritrea by the Italians, or the Anschluss of Austria, or perhaps the taking of Czechoslovakia! If this is all we can expect for the 2nd DLC this game will quickly take over a spot in my bookcase, to never be looked at again!

The developers of PC1 took all of this and used it to make PC1 such a great game and included the ability, intentionally, for mods to expand it further. The GCs are their own in house answer to what the mod campaigns were to PG2. Now, with PC2 if you browse this forum, you'll see some of your opinion, but the majority want something different. Not just a repeat of the first game but with different graphics and a few other tweaks.

I had such high hopes for this game to expand PC1, and some things I do like, in this game, are things like Traits, giving orders to satellite armies, splitting units, to name a few, but it needs much more!

It is only one DLC, and a unique one, but I think you'll get more of what you were looking for in the upcoming DLCs, but only time will tell. My advice, be patient. It's like judging a book on only the first chapter.

Retributarr
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:42 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:13 am
Altermann wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:41 pm
So far, for me, this game in no way continues the great game that PC1 was/is, much the same way that Panzer General 2 did not continue the original PG game.

Now, with PC2 if you browse this forum, you'll see some of your opinion, but the majority want something different. Not just a repeat of the first game but with different graphics and a few other tweaks.[/color]

It is only one DLC, and a unique one, but I think you'll get more of what you were looking for in the upcoming DLCs, but only time will tell. My advice, be patient. It's like judging a book on only the first chapter.
Many of us were looking for some new frontiers to experience... yes!... through-out our 'Gaming-Past'... we have... 'Time and Time again'... have 'Repeatedly run through the same 'Rote/Modus Operandi'... the same show... over and over again and again. We wanted instead... to have a small taste of what quite a few of us... haven't had the chance to explore before... so now the "Spanish Civil War" delivers to us... a new adventure!... a different perspective to see another side of this conflict...such as it was from its very-beginnings!.

We get to see just what the early-stage resources that the Italians and the Germans had to offer... and how well this equipment was able to perform in the field. Granted... this is not a facsimile or repetitive construct of the Campaigns in the Low-Countries or the Invasion of Russia... it is definitely different!.

Soon... the pace, the process and the 'Atmosphere' of the Game will change stage by stage as it escalates to different varieties of equipment and operational procedures. This is how we get a more or a deeper 'Immersion' realization of this WWII-Conflict. Eventually... the Charge into the Low-Countries and into Russia will have their turn to present themselves to us... with hopefully the inclusion of some 'Unexpected-Twists' along the way!.

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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:15 pm

SCW ... Additional-After-Thought-Commentary:

For "Enhanced-Game-Immersion"... I would have so much liked to see to have seen for instance... some posturing and verbal support statements from "Mussolini & Adolf Hitler" for their involvement in the Spanish Civil War... to give some additional substance for their involvement in this Crises... as well as to what they had hoped to gain or to get out of it... so as to make the Game... less sterile... and more informative.

I would like to have had for example the "Italian Corpo Voluntare' & the German Condor Legion" labeled as such and enabled as distinct entities in the Game!. Where... then we could have 'Full-Control' over their development and deployments... for the Spanish-Effort as well as for future Campaign roles.

I also would have liked... if possible to have the Commanders of these force-entities... visually displayed for us 'On-Screen' during the Game with what-ever relevant commentaries that they had issued at that period in time.

To make this 'Game' live and be an immersive experience... these ideas or concepts as well as others could have/should have been factored in. Any other ideas or suggestions for this SCW-Game anyone???. Any new untried ideas for this and future Campaign opportunities... Anyone???.

IceSerpent
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by IceSerpent » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:46 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:15 pm
SCW ... Additional-After-Thought-Commentary:

For "Enhanced-Game-Immersion"... I would have so much liked to see to have seen for instance... some posturing and verbal support statements from "Mussolini & Adolf Hitler" for their involvement in the Spanish Civil War... to give some additional substance for their involvement in this Crises... as well as to what they had hoped to gain or to get out of it... so as to make the Game... less sterile... and more informative.
I am fairly certain that this sort of thing can be modded in. Briefings are in *.pz2brf files in the corresponding scenario folders, i.e. briefing for Seville is in ...\PanzerCorps2\Content\Campaigns\AO0Spain\01Seville\Seville.pz2brf file. Those files seem to be modifiable with in-game scenario editor. At least editor can open them, I haven't actually poked around in there too much.

RandomAttack
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by RandomAttack » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:20 pm

Altermann wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:41 pm
I'm sorry, but I did not pay Cdn $100 to get some little backwater Spanish Civil war DLC, which had very little to do with WW2. Yes it was a terrible conflict, as all Civil Wars are, but for this game it should have been included in the original game as a Campaign and NOT as a DLC, or, better idea, not even included at all!
Pretty much exactly my feelings. I've played part of the SCW campaign and have no serious problems with most of the implementation per se, I just don't find it interesting or particularly relevant as a PC2 DLC. Not something I would have purchased if given the option. Probably will be the same with "pre-Poland" DLC #2. They can do all the scenarios they want, but again, what is the point? Could well be a fine product with niche interest-- but I am not in that niche. Oh well, chalk it up to experience I guess but I doubt I will EVER pre-pay for any DLC from ANY developer ever again. "Fool me once..." and all that.

nexusno2000
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by nexusno2000 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:25 pm

Altermann wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:41 pm
I'm sorry, but I did not pay Cdn $100 to get some little backwater Spanish Civil war DLC, which had very little to do with WW2. Yes it was a terrible conflict, as all Civil Wars are, but for this game it should have been included in the original game as a Campaign and NOT as a DLC, or, better idea, not even included at all!

So far, for me, this game in no way continues the great game that PC1 was/is, much the same way that Panzer General 2 did not continue the original PG game. What will the next DLC be?? The battle of Eritrea by the Italians, or the Anschluss of Austria, or perhaps the taking of Czechoslovakia! If this is all we can expect for the 2nd DLC this game will quickly take over a spot in my bookcase, to never be looked at again!

I had such high hopes for this game to expand PC1, and some things I do like, in this game, are things like Traits, giving orders to satellite armies, splitting units, to name a few, but it needs much more!
Sorry, but you already did pay, willingly I might add, knowing that you did not, in fact, know what kind of DLCs would be released first. So why whine now?

Btw: You already know that the next DLC will be Axis Operations (i.e. Germany) and set in 1939. And that its main focus is the Polish campaign (or at least that can be inferred).
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econ21
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by econ21 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:29 pm

o_t_d_x wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:47 am
Instead of defend, what i rarely use, i would need a new order: "hold without touching my prestige". Prestige is my reputation in the german OKW, why should that be needed for the spanish to get supplies ? (which the germans didnt deliver - or did they drop large amounts of supplies during nationalist attacks ? and even if they did, I want to control who gets supplies and how much)
I think one could justify the game design decision for the Nationalist using your prestige as follows. Your literal prestige (your reputation in the German OKW) is hurt by the high casualties of the allies you are supposed to be supporting. You had one job - to support the Nationalists. If it is a bloodbath for them, it doesn't look good for you. It may not be that the Nationalists are taking your German oil, ammo and food etc. (still less your replacement men): but the end result is similar, you start being starved of resources because the Nationalists are not doing well.

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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by kverdon » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:32 am

I am happy for the uber elite of the Panzer Corp2 players that have bested the challenges of the SCW DLC obviously you can best the system at any challenge any and any level and this was designed for you. My hats off to you but that leaves the rest of us in a bit of a less than satisfactory experience. I took the lessons learned here and restarted my campaign with a general with War Trophies of War combined with Perimeter Control and yes, this and a change of strategy to surround and eliminate and capture enemy units, now sees me up at the 10K level of prestige instead of the 2K level that makes the bleed from the idiotic AI control units a bit more palatable. With these traits I was able able to not only avoid running out of prestige but have enough available captured units to replace the less capable units of my own with ones that can match the greatly over strength units of the Enemy AI. This worked well and good until I hit the Teurel scenario. What a cluster. I did as instructed and with max Core and Aux units blew a hole in the Republican fortifications. I then gave the AI controlled Nationalist cavalry the order to attack thinking they would then swarm through the gap and head towards their encircled comrades at Teruel. This was a complete joke. They attacked every else BUT in direction of Teruel. First off, there is now way you are going to save Tureul. It falls in 4-6 turns WAY before you can get to them to help them out. You are then faced with fighting through a mass of over strength units to get it back in time. Mostly likely NOT going to happen. Then there is the issue of the escort of the medical unit to friendly lines. This is absurd is the maximum degree. The most obvious way to get them out would be to fight a spearhead into Turel to let them escape. Nope, they will be dead LONG before that happens. The only way you can get them home free is to have them wander about in the wilderness until you can clear a path for them to get to the rear lines. Seeing that this in in the middle of winter, most of those medical cases you are trying to free would be LONG dead of frostbite and exposure n the turns it takes to get them to the safe zone. I hope that this scenario was just not tested appropriately and that it is not an indication of the future.

dalfrede
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by dalfrede » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:47 am

kverdon wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:32 am
. . . I then gave the AI controlled Nationalist cavalry the order to attack thinking they would then swarm through the gap and head towards their encircled comrades at Teruel.
Give the attack order the first turn.
Bring Italian Infantry to the city, the Nationalist often get distracted and forget to take the VH. So be prepared to do it yourself.

The Bonus is more complicated, There is a long discussion of it on this forum, but it may it the Beta.
In short sneak out to the east early. It is not foolproof but it works if you can avoid the Rep. reinforcements coming to the city from the NE.

Edit:Found it.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 4&t=100244
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Retributarr
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:51 am

kverdon wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:32 am
I hope that this scenario was just not tested appropriately and that it is not an indication of the future.
"I AGREE!!!"

Kerensky
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:57 am

Teruel is also much harder than I remember... I think if I could go back I would definitely tone that scenario down, especially with Teruel getting overrun by around turn 6. That didn't happen originally, and I'm kinda seeing how frustrating it is now firsthand...

But still beat it, still got the bonus objective of evacing the medical truck out by fleeing East to hide in the snowstorm, so a win's a win.

Ultimately bonus objectives have no real obligation to play fair though. Some are going to be very difficult and seemingly unfair. The question is will players rise to the challenge, or settle for not having a perfect all bonus objective run?

Thank goodness for Aragon Offensive being a break. That huge timer meant I took so much extra time to recover my prestige by making many, many captures. Entering Ebro back up to 6000 prestige, which should be enough... I hope.

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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by KesaAnna » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:26 am

Retributarr wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:15 pm
SCW ... Additional-After-Thought-Commentary:

For "Enhanced-Game-Immersion"... I would have so much liked to see to have seen for instance... some posturing and verbal support statements from "Mussolini & Adolf Hitler" for their involvement in the Spanish Civil War...
In the Panzer General I played so many years ago , you never see the face of the guy who gives you the briefings , and he is not in any other way identified , but there was a clue , maybe a thin clue , and I can't remember what the clue was , ( we are talking about a 20 year old ( ? ) memory here ) but the clue gave me the impression that the guy briefing you was Adolf Hitler.

As for introducing him into the game in any but the most deprecating way .... I'm afraid that would be no less a hot potato than introducing swastikas into the game.

I thought it was pretty daring to put Franco in the game. But then , frankly , outside of Spain , who , really , is going to get their panties in a twist over Francisco Franco ?
Certainly the reaction among nine out of ten Americans would be ; " Franco Who ? "

And , on that score , I don't think Mussolini would be particularly provocative either.

---

Anyway , what's the point of SCW ?

-- Well , if you are role - playing European Fascist / extreme right - wing , then , arguably , WW II really does begin in 1936 , in Spain.

-- You get to play around with equipment you either never see , or would never use in any case , in the generic campaign.

As for equipment you never see , you get the embryonic Luftwaffe . Until I played SCW I never paid any attention to the German biplane fighter , and certainly never saw it , or used it , in a game.
Likewise the German biplane tactical bomber . Until I played SCW I wasn't aware that ( according to Wikipedia ) the Germans were so fond of their biplane tactical bomber that , even after the introduction of the Stuka , they continued to use it up until 1943 , and only quit using it then because they ran out of spare parts.
Having played with it in Spain , I've become pretty fond of it myself !

You get the first model of the Stuka.

You get an aerial recon other than the Fiesler Storch.

Where else , and when else , would you get to use equipment like the Trubia tank ? And you would at least have to wait a long time to get to use the Russian 203 mm 1931 howitzer.

As for equipment you would otherwise never use in the generic campaign ; Who ever uses horse - drawn artillery , or cavalry , in the generic campaign ?

-- For those of us who wanted an Italian campaign , or the opportunity to use lots and lots of Italian equipment , you already get basically that in SCW.

-- Precisely because of the limitations of SCW , at least some of us wind up learning some pretty neat and useful things. For example , because of the weakness of my tanks , and other limitations , in SCW I learned how to use towed AT , and with some effectiveness too ! Previously , my use of towed AT was awful , and consequently the unit was plain worthless to me. Now I Love my towed AT !

Again , because my tanks are so weak , I actually learned how to use towed light AA guns in ground attack with some effectiveness. Previously I never used a 3.7cm in ground attack because , while I did once get lucky , my AA gun always got spanked badly in ground attack. Now I seem to acquire half my experience in light AA guns with ground attack.

I don't suppose at this point in history cavalry is ever going to be a world -beater , but I have become at least incrementally better at using it. Good enough , I think , to make it worth my while to spend 3 slots on Italian cavalry instead of on another unit of Italian infantry. This might be useful in the future if we ever do get an Italian campaign , because the Italians never get half - tracks , and so the Italians are somewhat handicapped in mobility .

-- Experience is always good. In SCW recon is as effective as tanks. That means you will be going into Poland with some already very - well - trained recon , or converted into another very - well - trained unit you prefer. Likewise , you can now go into Poland with some already decently trained fighters , tac bombers , strat bombers , AA and AT guns , and tanks.

-- At least some of us are and / or were , Condor Legion / SCW fans . :mrgreen:

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