Paratroopers are still broken

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ChristianC
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:55 am

Paratroopers are still broken

Post by ChristianC » Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:23 pm

Unlike in the first game there is practically no chance to intercept transports considering paratroopers move and drop within one turn (so long as they jump within 12 hexes which is a lot). A user doesn't have to bother diverting fighters to act as escorts which decreases the tactical decision making that goes into using them. Why should paratroopers be able to fly directly over your front lines with impunity? Why should paratroopers have the ability to drop harmlessly over AA guns? (in clear weather no less!) Why should paratroopers receive no suppression or penalties for landing in forests/thick forests?? They even maintain their forced march ability upon landing which means they can move, land (+1 hex), move again, up to a total of 17 hexes in one turn... Devs should bring back the mechanic by which paratroops cannot fly and jump in the same turn.

sakura006
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:48 pm

Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by sakura006 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:39 pm

ChristianC wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:23 pm
Unlike in the first game there is practically no chance to intercept transports considering paratroopers move and drop within one turn (so long as they jump within 12 hexes which is a lot). A user doesn't have to bother diverting fighters to act as escorts which decreases the tactical decision making that goes into using them. Why should paratroopers be able to fly directly over your front lines with impunity? Why should paratroopers have the ability to drop harmlessly over AA guns? (in clear weather no less!) Why should paratroopers receive no suppression or penalties for landing in forests/thick forests?? They even maintain their forced march ability upon landing which means they can move, land (+1 hex), move again, up to a total of 17 hexes in one turn... Devs should bring back the mechanic by which paratroops cannot fly and jump in the same turn.
Just a personal opinion. Tactically, if paratroopers cannot land and move, they will have no practical use in the game, at least in the single player campaign. Paratroopers have worse stats than common infantry; they are actually better in PC1 and OoB; And in most of cases, they will be encircled when they land, which makes them very vulnerable. They cannot land and attack, and when they do attack in the next turn, they have already been encircled and suppressed for one turn, assuming they survive the enemy fire in the landing turn. In OoB, the paratrooper has three turn of extra supply, so even if they are encircled, they are still in a good shape for fighting for the next 3 turns. The paratrooper in PC2 is already "nerfed" to some extent. In the early game, they do provide some extra tactical options, but in the late war when your fighters are busy with intercepting enemy aircraft, paratroopers really have no use at all. Anyway, they are not broken in my opinion. I almost never use paratroopers in the single player campaign except in Netherlands and Norway. I do agree that they should be shot if an AA unit is in the range though.

ChristianC
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:55 am

Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by ChristianC » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:42 am

sakura006 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:39 pm
Just a personal opinion. Tactically, if paratroopers cannot land and move, they will have no practical use in the game, at least in the single player campaign. Paratroopers have worse stats than common infantry; they are actually better in PC1 and OoB; And in most of cases, they will be encircled when they land, which makes them very vulnerable. They cannot land and attack, and when they do attack in the next turn, they have already been encircled and suppressed for one turn, assuming they survive the enemy fire in the landing turn. In OoB, the paratrooper has three turn of extra supply, so even if they are encircled, they are still in a good shape for fighting for the next 3 turns. The paratrooper in PC2 is already "nerfed" to some extent. In the early game, they do provide some extra tactical options, but in the late war when your fighters are busy with intercepting enemy aircraft, paratroopers really have no use at all. Anyway, they are not broken in my opinion. I almost never use paratroopers in the single player campaign except in Netherlands and Norway. I do agree that they should be shot if an AA unit is in the range though.
"In most of cases they will be encircled when they land" is far from accurate even when you have units in reserve on a medium to large map, especially if you're playing against an opponent that did a bit of recon. On large maps such preparatory recon is even less necessary. They will most likely find a safe spot to nestle for a turn with all that movement to get their attack action while you can do your best to send a quick reactionary force to eventually surround them. Early war scenario with a lack of mobile tracked vehicles? Even less of a chance. Don't get me wrong, I like them as a special unit and I think they can be used really thoughtfully, but they've just become too spam-like (especially when split). OoB is another game that I am not concerned with really. This is the squeal to Panzer Corps should be better in every aspect than its predecessor. The move-jump-move has removed some good nuance and its too bad because it really is better in every other mechanical aspect at this point.

sakura006
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:48 pm

Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by sakura006 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:42 am

ChristianC wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:42 am
sakura006 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:39 pm
Just a personal opinion. Tactically, if paratroopers cannot land and move, they will have no practical use in the game, at least in the single player campaign. Paratroopers have worse stats than common infantry; they are actually better in PC1 and OoB; And in most of cases, they will be encircled when they land, which makes them very vulnerable. They cannot land and attack, and when they do attack in the next turn, they have already been encircled and suppressed for one turn, assuming they survive the enemy fire in the landing turn. In OoB, the paratrooper has three turn of extra supply, so even if they are encircled, they are still in a good shape for fighting for the next 3 turns. The paratrooper in PC2 is already "nerfed" to some extent. In the early game, they do provide some extra tactical options, but in the late war when your fighters are busy with intercepting enemy aircraft, paratroopers really have no use at all. Anyway, they are not broken in my opinion. I almost never use paratroopers in the single player campaign except in Netherlands and Norway. I do agree that they should be shot if an AA unit is in the range though.
"In most of cases they will be encircled when they land" is far from accurate even when you have units in reserve on a medium to large map, especially if you're playing against an opponent that did a bit of recon. On large maps such preparatory recon is even less necessary. They will most likely find a safe spot to nestle for a turn with all that movement to get their attack action while you can do your best to send a quick reactionary force to eventually surround them. Early war scenario with a lack of mobile tracked vehicles? Even less of a chance. Don't get me wrong, I like them as a special unit and I think they can be used really thoughtfully, but they've just become too spam-like (especially when split). OoB is another game that I am not concerned with really. This is the squeal to Panzer Corps should be better in every aspect than its predecessor. The move-jump-move has removed some good nuance and its too bad because it really is better in every other mechanical aspect at this point.
I never play multiplayer game, so my opinion is only from single player campaign perspective. In multiplayer game where the maps are not crowded with units, perhaps paratroopers perform better.

a432
OoB Tournament Winner
OoB Tournament Winner
Posts: 130
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Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by a432 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:48 pm

sakura006 is like many others here; they only play single player. A single player only person cannot fathom the issues with paratroopers. To a single player they don't see any thing wrong with paratroopers because in their reality, there isn't a problem.

take a single step into multiplayer and you will quickly realize how important and game changing paratroopers are. Broken? Absolutely

The devs are the problem, at this point they only have eyes for single player. Multiplayer is just some ugly distraction that ruin their perfect image of what a true Panzer Corp game should look and feel like.

When the devs in all their single player only wisdom decided that paratroops should be able to land AND move in the same turn we have a multiplayer problem. Also they used to have suppression when they landed as well! Maybe... I dunno... to simulate how disorganized paratroopers are when they first land...

When the devs in all their single player only wisdom decided that you can build units immediately after capturing on the same turn we have a multiplayer problem.

Combine all of this and we have bad game mechanics that allow for the cheap and gamey. RIP multiplayer

nexusno2000
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
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Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:14 am

For multiplayer paras should just be removed from the game altogether given how they work. They can potentially ruin a game. They don't always do, but I can't see the benefit of having this mechanic in the game. It doesn't add complexity or another interesting mechanic. It's just something highly annoying that you have to account for.

Now the fun part: in the beta I tried to argue that paras as currently implemented didn't work very well. This was from a single player perspective. The answer I got was they had to work the way they do bc of multiplayer.

So you see there is design intent here, good luck getting it changed.

Relatedly, trying to please both single and multiplayer with a signle equipment file and the same set of rules isn't a good idea. How do you tweak multiplayer aspect when any change will also change how multiplayer works?

And finally I hate the paras even in single player. You will always hammer the AI, so that's not the problem. The problem is the way transports don't return to base. Are not affected by flak. Can't really be intercepted. The way paras drop and then can move (what's the point of the miss jump mechanic of your can instantly move?).

Paras are horribly executed imo. But for me as mostly a single player there is an easy way out. Don't use them.
Green Knight
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adiekmann
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:47 am

Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by adiekmann » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:25 pm

In PC1 I often used Fallschirmjäger units even as just ground units. Their high attack rating and initiative meant that they could hit hard and leave the defender with little to no return attack.

However, those advantages have largely disappeared in the sequel. I have never played MP even in PC1, but I now never use paratroopers because there's little benefit over the other infantry types.

Tassadar
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 293
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Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by Tassadar » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:52 pm

It seems that for various reasons, flavor included, they indeed should not be able to move after landing and land partially suppressed and be in the air for at least one turn to allow for fighter and AA fire interception. To circumvent this penalty, the maps can be designed in such a way where there are interesting targets on the map that offer potential uses.

That is however so far possibly a multiplayer issue for the most part. In the core campaign, both the defensive historical path and offensive fictional one did not give me too much of a chance to use paras - I think I only tried them in crossing the channel in the fictional path. There is little to no reason of using them.

Now, in the AO1939 it does show some more potential. I bought two Paratrooper units in Denmark and used them there and I see potential for future scenarios - Norway isolated towns, French fortifications, mountains and islands of Greece etc. However it would still be probably better if their usage was slightly restricted.

s_Jambo
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:56 am

Re: Paratroopers are still broken

Post by s_Jambo » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:35 pm

Yes I agree. In multiplayer, and certainly on the large size map and above, you simply don’t have enough slots to buy enough infantry to defend all the victory hexes or enough fighters to shoot down invading paras. As a result, it is very possible to use paras to constantly game the system and steal victory hexes behind the lines. In fact you are more likely to secure victory hexes with paras that you are through the hard fought front line battles.

:roll:

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