AO 1939 review and remarks

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Kerensky
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Kerensky » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:50 pm

Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:42 pm
Your caring is very obvious by the great scenarios you bring out and by the replies you give on these forums. I really appreciate it greatly and it is more than one usually sees on a game's official forums. But some of these fixes you mention here now in the changelog are pretty important and I cannot smell them or something if they are not mentioned somewhere, nor did I manage to play through SCW again in the past week while going through AO 1939.

Warning in advance: thinking about the game and reading some of the discussions on these forums tonight got me thinking and writing, so there is another long post from me arriving soon. It will just be about hopes, not expectations, and it will be written because I have hopes for this game, which I think is a positive.
Yes, and I assure you I made a bit of an internal fuss over that changelog making it into game, but not being posted in an announcement. :P
But more important that the notes, is that the changes were pushed out, and are now live for players to experience in game. :mrgreen:

And for anyone who cares enough to bring up concerns, I am happy to answer those concerns and hopefully put them to rest. I totally agree it's bad form to just shovel out content without going back to fix reported issues in earlier products.... which I why I didn't just fix as much as I could with SCW, but I also made sure to document it as a highlight.

I probably spend too much time reading and replying to the forum (when apparently I need to make MORE POLAND instead), but I will look forward to reading what you and other people have to say in long form, constructive criticism and discussion. :)

Rhaeg
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Rhaeg » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:10 pm

Tassadar wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:44 pm
Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:34 pm
Tassadar wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:17 pm

It worked for me after hitting a truck near Caddenbronn with a recon, revealing my units from the east side and running ASAP, keeping the ones up north waiting patiently. Things escalated quickly when both sides meet up - ultimately I just had to fight 1-2 stray units after that.
I'm not sure I understand... Do you mean you kept your units back for a few turns and only sent the recon forth at first?
Almost exactly. After taking down the sentries (which with planning and a bit of luck is possible in one turn with minimal losses), I've sent one armored car on the road to Caddenbronn to have a shot at it and cause some commotion on turn two. At the same time the rest of the army got separated into 2 groups - one stayed in position around where the western sentries were located and one moved a bit east (between Waeschbach and Bousbach rivers) to dash towards the objectives when the road is clear. Had to try it two times - apparently the fist time when chasing down a western sentry I got spotted by the blue army up north by accident and if that happens, they will also move north instead of east. The armies collided around turn 4-5 and then my eastern group could safely move out, the western did so a turn later.
Aaaah, thanks a lot for the extra clarification, I'm guessing now I let my units get spotted before they had their little party together. This gives me some idea for my 2nd run through the campaign!
Kerensky wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:50 pm
Yes, and I assure you I made a bit of an internal fuss over that changelog making it into game, but not being posted in an announcement. :P
But more important that the notes, is that the changes were pushed out, and are now live for players to experience in game. :mrgreen:

And for anyone who cares enough to bring up concerns, I am happy to answer those concerns and hopefully put them to rest. I totally agree it's bad form to just shovel out content without going back to fix reported issues in earlier products.... which I why I didn't just fix as much as I could with SCW, but I also made sure to document it as a highlight.

I probably spend too much time reading and replying to the forum (when apparently I need to make MORE POLAND instead), but I will look forward to reading what you and other people have to say in long form, constructive criticism and discussion. :)
For me it is most important that the changes got put out, because now I can start my 2nd run through SCW ("the optimal" one that I will use as a base for my eventual entire AO run) and do the branch that I didn't do yet because of the no prestige bug in the one scenario. So I have a few scenarios to play now that I have never seen yet!

And I can understand reading too much in one go on these forums can make you go *sigh*, I stopped reading the very long "AO 1939 campaign tree" thread after I posted twice on the first page of that and it turned negative (I see now that the original message and thread title have been nice-ified since then). It's a luxury I have.

Retributarr
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Retributarr » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:11 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:50 pm
Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:42 pm
Your caring is very obvious by the great scenarios you bring out and by the replies you give on these forums. I really appreciate it greatly and it is more than one usually sees on a game's official forums. [Ret: Yes!... Thanks "Kerensky"... for your concerned efforts... they are very-much appreciated!.]
Yes, and I assure you I made a bit of an internal fuss over that changelog making it into game, but not being posted in an announcement. :P

I will look forward to reading what you and other people have to say in long form, constructive criticism and discussion. :)
Image
***"I made a bit of an internal fuss over that changelog making it into game"***
*** On-Going... "constructive criticism and discussion"***

Rhaeg
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Rhaeg » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:23 pm

Lol.

kverdon
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by kverdon » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:50 pm

From the Original Post:

"Forbach:

I have no clue how you should get the 2 French sides to meet each other in combat. My initial thought was that you should attack a truck with one unit and then that unit would act like a magnet for blue French faction troops and you could lead them to red. No matter how I tried that did not work. I reloaded a dozen times and then just accepted that my theory was incorrect or the implementation did not work at all. I ended up getting the depot objective to 2/4 but getting nowhere near 4/4."

Once you sort this out it is extremely simple. Once you take out the sentries send most of your heavier tanks down the center. Reserve one of the Faster ones on each flank and send the scout cars after the trucks. Just damage a few of them. Then first kite the Blue forces with your scout cars into your heavier tanks and then use the tanks to kite the Blue forces over to the reds. Just keep hitting and retreating while drawing the Blue Forces after you, just don't get too far way from the blue forces yet. In the mean time move 3 of your scout cars out of sight just north of the central ridge line and deployed slightly to the west. Get ready to send the other scout car to the east.

if things work out right, you will draw the Blue forces into a fight with the Red forces in the middle south of the map. You then withdraw your forces to the flanks and with your scout cars and faster tanks, take out the hangers and the Fuel Depots. You may have 1 single tank to deal with on the east flank but you can just encircle it and take it out when your heavier tanks catch up.

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Kerensky » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:01 pm

kverdon wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:50 pm
From the Original Post:

"Forbach:

I have no clue how you should get the 2 French sides to meet each other in combat. My initial thought was that you should attack a truck with one unit and then that unit would act like a magnet for blue French faction troops and you could lead them to red. No matter how I tried that did not work. I reloaded a dozen times and then just accepted that my theory was incorrect or the implementation did not work at all. I ended up getting the depot objective to 2/4 but getting nowhere near 4/4."

Once you sort this out it is extremely simple. Once you take out the sentries send most of your heavier tanks down the center. Reserve one of the Faster ones on each flank and send the scout cars after the trucks. Just damage a few of them. Then first kite the Blue forces with your scout cars into your heavier tanks and then use the tanks to kite the Blue forces over to the reds. Just keep hitting and retreating while drawing the Blue Forces after you, just don't get too far way from the blue forces yet. In the mean time move 3 of your scout cars out of sight just north of the central ridge line and deployed slightly to the west. Get ready to send the other scout car to the east.

if things work out right, you will draw the Blue forces into a fight with the Red forces in the middle south of the map. You then withdraw your forces to the flanks and with your scout cars and faster tanks, take out the hangers and the Fuel Depots. You may have 1 single tank to deal with on the east flank but you can just encircle it and take it out when your heavier tanks catch up.
The most... obtuse... part of this mission is that it hinges on allowing the enemy units to see you, and then you kite (nice MMO parlance) them towards the other enemy faction.
There isn't a UI feature to 'see what the enemy can see', it's something you definitely have to figure out for yourself based on looking at the vision radius stat of enemy units, and counting hexes from there (don't forget to account for weather penalties and hill bonuses).

Given the extremely experimental design of it... yea we absolutely made it a 'optional mission with ONLY bonus objectives' and no fail state. :)

Rhaeg
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Rhaeg » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:15 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:01 pm
kverdon wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:50 pm
From the Original Post:

"Forbach:

I have no clue how you should get the 2 French sides to meet each other in combat. My initial thought was that you should attack a truck with one unit and then that unit would act like a magnet for blue French faction troops and you could lead them to red. No matter how I tried that did not work. I reloaded a dozen times and then just accepted that my theory was incorrect or the implementation did not work at all. I ended up getting the depot objective to 2/4 but getting nowhere near 4/4."

Once you sort this out it is extremely simple. Once you take out the sentries send most of your heavier tanks down the center. Reserve one of the Faster ones on each flank and send the scout cars after the trucks. Just damage a few of them. Then first kite the Blue forces with your scout cars into your heavier tanks and then use the tanks to kite the Blue forces over to the reds. Just keep hitting and retreating while drawing the Blue Forces after you, just don't get too far way from the blue forces yet. In the mean time move 3 of your scout cars out of sight just north of the central ridge line and deployed slightly to the west. Get ready to send the other scout car to the east.

if things work out right, you will draw the Blue forces into a fight with the Red forces in the middle south of the map. You then withdraw your forces to the flanks and with your scout cars and faster tanks, take out the hangers and the Fuel Depots. You may have 1 single tank to deal with on the east flank but you can just encircle it and take it out when your heavier tanks catch up.
The most... obtuse... part of this mission is that it hinges on allowing the enemy units to see you, and then you kite (nice MMO parlance) them towards the other enemy faction.
There isn't a UI feature to 'see what the enemy can see', it's something you definitely have to figure out for yourself based on looking at the vision radius stat of enemy units, and counting hexes from there (don't forget to account for weather penalties and hill bonuses).

Given the extremely experimental design of it... yea we absolutely made it a 'optional mission with ONLY bonus objectives' and no fail state. :)
I think I failed at the "allowing enemy units to see you" part. I really meant what I said in my OP about this being the highlight of the DLC to me, not because it was the best scenario, but because it introduced a new concept that I think is extremely sound. This kind of mission really is what a bonus mission should be about: it's optional, there are multiple objectives from easy to hard and all of them are giving bonus commendation points, it's a puzzle scenario (I'm kind of happy I did not get it at first try!) and it does not matter what your core forces look like because they are not involved anyway. I feel this should be the general template for a bonus scenario and I've never seen it done before in any game in this genre. A puzzle intermezzo, any campaign could use one of these.

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Kerensky » Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:05 am

Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:15 pm
I feel this should be the general template for a bonus scenario and I've never seen it done before in any game in this genre. A puzzle intermezzo, any campaign could use one of these.
Order of Battle has something akin to it. In the Burma DLC, there is Operation Longcloth with a Chindit raid of all auxiliary units.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chindits

kondi754
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by kondi754 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:35 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:05 am
Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:15 pm
I feel this should be the general template for a bonus scenario and I've never seen it done before in any game in this genre. A puzzle intermezzo, any campaign could use one of these.
Order of Battle has something akin to it. In the Burma DLC, there is Operation Longcloth with a Chindit raid of all auxiliary units.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chindits
I have a question for you related to OoB Burma Road.
Did you read Donovan Webster's "Burma Road" book before getting to work?
I'm reading it now and noticed that there are a lot of tidbits from this book used in this game. I even found a certain perception of the war in Burma in this DLC which is presented in this book.
Of course, except for the complete omission of Joe Stilwell, who in the book is the chief architect of the success of the British-American-Sino-Indian joint forces

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Kerensky » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:46 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:35 pm
I have a question for you related to OoB Burma Road.
Did you read Donovan Webster's "Burma Road" book before getting to work?
I'm reading it now and noticed that there are a lot of tidbits from this book used in this game. I even found a certain perception of the war in Burma in this DLC which is presented in this book.
Of course, except for the complete omission of Joe Stilwell, who in the book is the chief architect of the success of the British-American-Sino-Indian joint forces
Nope. Never heard of it.

But a couple of the books I did have on the topic were:

Image

Image

There are a whole bunch of these Ballatine's Illustrated History of WW II books.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/series/ball ... ons/57532/

kondi754
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by kondi754 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:51 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:46 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:35 pm
I have a question for you related to OoB Burma Road.
Did you read Donovan Webster's "Burma Road" book before getting to work?
I'm reading it now and noticed that there are a lot of tidbits from this book used in this game. I even found a certain perception of the war in Burma in this DLC which is presented in this book.
Of course, except for the complete omission of Joe Stilwell, who in the book is the chief architect of the success of the British-American-Sino-Indian joint forces
Nope. Never heard of it.

But a couple of the books I did have on the topic were:

Image

Image

There are a whole bunch of these Ballatine's Illustrated History of WW II books.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/series/ball ... ons/57532/
Interesting :)
Webster's book is very interesting, too
Such a typical war journalism with a huge amount of interesting facts, he previously wrote for "National Geographic", among others

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Kerensky » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:15 am

kondi754 wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:51 pm
Interesting :)
Webster's book is very interesting, too
Such a typical war journalism with a huge amount of interesting facts, he previously wrote for "National Geographic", among others
Well the problem with physical media, I only can use what I have physical access to. I did go out of my way to acquire this book for the Spanish Civil War.

Image

It's brand new, a 2019 Published book if I remember right.
Publication Date : April 19, 2019

I dig this book out of the basement recently, might come in handy soon. :P

Image

I need to make one, single 1940 France scenario, so I better make it well. Then it's 25 scenarios of joining Italian efforts in Albania around October - December of 1940. :roll:

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by kondi754 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:31 am

It is very, very interesting
Albania... hmm
So I expect also Italian's Greek campaign 40/41 :)

I see that you are planning a trip to all corners of Europe :)

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Snake97644 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:19 am

Kerensky wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:15 am
I need to make one, single 1940 France scenario, so I better make it well. Then it's 25 scenarios of joining Italian efforts in Albania around October - December of 1940. :roll:
:lol: Don't forget the 10 Norway scenario before France.

Retributarr
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Retributarr » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:51 am

Kerensky wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:15 am

I need to make one, single 1940 France scenario, so I better make it well. Then it's 25 scenarios of joining Italian efforts in Albania around October - December of 1940. :roll:
Suggestion!: Make it in at least 2-Parts... possibly even 3... depending on what is involved. I very-much like how it was done in "OoB"... where 'Belgium' and 'France' were invaded simultaneously!.

"Part-1":
First!...the 'Belgium' invasion objective going for several important [Fortress_ Eban-Emal?] targets as well as the Capital City. This had the effect of drawing British and French troops out of Northern France into Belgium.

Second!... the French invasion objective for the Germans... was to first take "Sedan"... then race across Northern-France to cut off the Allies in the north... in Belgium.

Part-2
However required phases or segments of the 'Invasion of France' that seems appropriate to depict!.

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Rifraff » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:37 am

After importing two cores from SCW I was a bit disappointed with how easy the 39 dlc was. I thought I would give it a go starting with a new core. Was a little surprised to start with a decent amount of exp on my new force and 5 heroes as well.

The game has become a lot more enjoyable though. Just finished Saarbrucken and whilst my imported cores barely got attacked which I would put down to all the exp and the mass of heroes I had. With the new core the French are actually trying to assault me across the river and doing some decent damage too.

Definitely a lot more fun and wish I had done this from the start.

In my experience it just didn't seem that this dlc was balanced around having an imported core. If it was, I hope any future dlc are considerably harder...

nexusno2000
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by nexusno2000 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:57 pm

I must say I'm a bit curious about how the Battle of France will be handled.

We've already kicked the French - and taken their equipment, loaded up on Soviet gear, and have tons of heroes.

AO: 1940 COULD skip most of the French campaign, and instead go Yugoslavia, Greece, and whatever, but what do these countries have to offer in terms of resistance? Nothing.

And the British? Some decent planes, and a few Matildas, and?
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Kerensky
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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Kerensky » Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:12 pm

nexusno2000 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:57 pm
I must say I'm a bit curious about how the Battle of France will be handled.

We've already kicked the French - and taken their equipment, loaded up on Soviet gear, and have tons of heroes.

AO: 1940 COULD skip most of the French campaign, and instead go Yugoslavia, Greece, and whatever, but what do these countries have to offer in terms of resistance? Nothing.

And the British? Some decent planes, and a few Matildas, and?
From what I have seen, it's a mistake to think that every player is fully loaded with an overwhelming amount of captured equipment and top tier rerolled Killer Team heroes. Many players aren't running Trophies of War, many players aren't accomplishing 100% bonus objectives, and even a few players are struggling to the point they are actually running out of prestige during the DLC campaigns.

So... great job the elite, cream of the crop players who have conquered the content. But the designs have to be aimed more towards the middle ground, and there's plenty of room for middle ground content in such a large and important battle as the Battle for France. For the elite, cream of the crop, time to start cranking up the difficulty. I force myself to play on Generalissimos so I feel massive pressure from terribly low prestige, with filters back to hopefully giving more average level players more than starvation levels of prestige to work with. But that said, I still haven't made the leap into proper highest difficulty, with I see as Manstein +5 enemy strength mode. :shock:

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by Gfot » Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:18 am

I've been following the discussion on Saar Offensive vs. Poland, and I see merit to both sides. Yes it was great to see a new setting, and the scenarios themselves are fun to play, but three and a half (L'vov was extremely short) Polish scenarios did leave me with a "that's it?" feeling, despite the fact that both the Battle of the Bzura and the slog through Warsaw were pretty epic. Maybe 3-4 Saar scenarios instead of 5 would have been better, but I think the reaction is overblown, 1-2 extra scenarios here or there do not make or break a campaign. I like the fact that there are some defensive battles mixed in, in previous early war campaigns (looking at you PzC 1 GC) the focus on offense meant units like towed anti-tank and AA were hard to use. Hopefully this will continue in future AOs, and conversely late game ones will feature some German counterattacks in addition to defending against waves of soviet tanks. Also love the unique rewards sprinkled here and there.

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Re: AO 1939 review and remarks

Post by nexusno2000 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:39 am

Kerensky wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:12 pm
nexusno2000 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:57 pm
I must say I'm a bit curious about how the Battle of France will be handled.

We've already kicked the French - and taken their equipment, loaded up on Soviet gear, and have tons of heroes.

AO: 1940 COULD skip most of the French campaign, and instead go Yugoslavia, Greece, and whatever, but what do these countries have to offer in terms of resistance? Nothing.

And the British? Some decent planes, and a few Matildas, and?
From what I have seen, it's a mistake to think that every player is fully loaded with an overwhelming amount of captured equipment and top tier rerolled Killer Team heroes. Many players aren't running Trophies of War, many players aren't accomplishing 100% bonus objectives, and even a few players are struggling to the point they are actually running out of prestige during the DLC campaigns.

So... great job the elite, cream of the crop players who have conquered the content. But the designs have to be aimed more towards the middle ground, and there's plenty of room for middle ground content in such a large and important battle as the Battle for France. For the elite, cream of the crop, time to start cranking up the difficulty. I force myself to play on Generalissimos so I feel massive pressure from terribly low prestige, with filters back to hopefully giving more average level players more than starvation levels of prestige to work with. But that said, I still haven't made the leap into proper highest difficulty, with I see as Manstein +5 enemy strength mode. :shock:
You should try. Even Seville is very different, as you can't easily kill the str 3 (now 8) wagon blocking the supply hex.

And sinking the battleship isn't so easy in the third mission.
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