Hero abilities tier list

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Magic1111
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Magic1111 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:58 pm

fluffybunnyuk wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:22 am
Its essential if you have trench slog. It works well on a tactical bomber or fighter later on once the enemy aircraft has been worn down to attack victory hexes. It saves on having a strategic bomber.
I just got that at Norway North after getting ignore entrenchment hero. I dont get mountaineers so i have to slog it out with 2x10.5cm,1x7.5cm, 1 pioneer, 5 wehr infantry, 2 fighters,1 tactical bomber, and 1x88. I'm grossly underpowered, so i put entrenchment killer on the tactical bomber, and ignore entrenchment on the wehr infantry.
More attacking units that remove entrenchment means less waiting time dealing with entrenchment. Its vital not to be kept waiting because other units get time to get entrenched and it turns into a slog...
Attacking enemy units doesnt remove entrenchment for me. I need to use specialised units.
Okay, understand.

I´ve used one or two Entrenchment Killer Heroes on a Grenadier Unit, because I thought the Grenadier Units have no Entrenchment Trait, in opposite to the Engineer Unit.

Was that wrong?

Tassadar
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Tassadar » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:21 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:19 pm
A number of these are unit traits, not hero abilities. They are given to specific units in the equip file, not given to players randomly as heroes.
:
Military Engineer [Ignores Entrenchment is the related hero]
Low Profile
Glider
Mine Killer
Paratrooper
Recon Plane
Single Entity
Single Shot
Kamikaze

There may be others.

For example : the 'No Split' hero isn't a real hero, it is a way for scenario designers to add a trait to specific units without modifying the equip file.

I suspect that some of the AI heroes are unit traits added by Kerensky to specific units, and not in the list of Heroes a player can receive.
The Traits list and Hero list overlap but are two separate things.
A LUA script can create a hero out of any trait, but if it is not in the games internal hero list it will not show up randomly.

The actual hero list was posted during the Beta, but any updates to the list since then have not been posted.
Perhaps when the 'Modding Tutorials' are released we will get the latest hero list actually in the game.
Appreciate the insight, I removed the mentioned ones to make the list accurate. The script can indeed a be a bit misleading, but I without looking in more details at the code it's a bit of a mystery in regards what the player may actually get. For example I have never seen Overrun and Shock Tactics in my games despite playing the core campaign 3 times and then both AO DLC, yet I've seen these on screens/videos, so these are one I know exist. I'll do my best to keep the leading post up to date based on latest info.

Scrapulous
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Scrapulous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm

Her are my experiences on where to put these heroes. I had hoped to find a list like this from a more experienced player than me, but couldn't, so hopefully better players will add to and correct this. I have not troubled to list heroes that I have no experience with unless an interesting use occurs to me.
  • Double Attack - I usually use this on units that I'm trying to train up to parity with the rest of my core. In practice that means that it was usually on gift tank units. There are more impactful uses for the short term, but having Double Attack on an inexperienced Verdeja 2 or a Somua isn't the worst thing in the world.
  • Fast Deployment - I got this early on in my first SCW run, and put it on an 8.8cm FlaK. That turned that thing into a very mobile tank destroyer with an AA mode. I loved it. It was tempting to put it on my 203mm artillery, but I usually find that I can plan ahead enough to make sure my guns can fire every turn without this hero.
  • No Retaliation - this can really eliminate the drawback of a low initiative, but I didn't have anything like that so early in the war. I rotated this around tanks and infantry depending on what I saw in the briefing. I intended to test it on a dive bomber to see if it eliminated AA fire, but I clearly forgot.
  • Rapid Fire - I think in most cases this is better than double attack, since you get half the retaliations. It's less flexible, though - I sometimes used Double Attack to cripple two enemy units so that a tank training up Overruns could mob the two weakened units up. In any case, I used it alongside Double Attack to train up my inexperienced units. Definitely a little sub-optimal on a per-scenario basis, but part of what I enjoy about the DLC grand campaign is building a core for the long haul.
  • Steamroller - I never got this on a hero, but I got it for all my armor, AT, and recon units. I would love to be able to have this on a tactical bomber or an artillery with Lethal Fire.
  • Zero Slots - I only got one and put it on my 203mm artillery. I later got Consolidator and Lethal Fire on that unit; a 20 strength 203mm that erases ~7 enemy strength per shot is an amazing asset, especially when its counter-battery fire gets going. Enemy artillery that made the mistake of firing near that beast would typically get reduced to 1 strength suppressed, not even getting a chance to shoot (because counter-battery can go first, which feels very wrong). I might argue that this belongs at the top of the S-Tier list.
  • Butcher - I put this on Tanks and Stukas. Early in the war there isn't always a hard target for the Stukas to hit.
  • Crippling Blow - I also put this on tac bombers. Land units don't have the same luxury of choice that air units tend to.
  • Envelopment - on my first core I got the amazing combo of pairing this with Overwhelming Attack and put them both on a Recon with strong hard attack. In a vacuum, I suppose I would put this on a tank. I would swap their locations in the tier list, but I play with Flexible Command (free unit splitting) on my General, which makes encirclements relatively easy.
  • Exterminator - I stupidly had this on a Stuka, but putting it on a tank for Overrun training sounds like a much better use.
  • Ignores Entrenchment - I put this on the Azul Infanterie, which seemed very effective. It would also pair well with Vigilance on a tank to make that tank an absolute terror in cities.
  • Lethal Attack - I always put this on my biggest artillery. This has a downside - if you want to suppress an encircled unit for capture, that artillery is not your friend. But it also makes that artillery amazing at dismantling enemy fortified positions and completely changing the odds of another unit's battle. It also makes support fire hilariously effective. I can see how it's useful on AA, and I have been tempted, but on so many scenarios AA becomes AT after the first several turns, while I never stop using artillery.
  • Scavenger - in my second SCW playthrough I played with Denied Airforce, Denied Artillery, and Backwards or Luddite or whatever the trait is called that delays upgrades by 6 months. I figured I would rely on captured equipment, so I also took Trophies of War. Then in scenarios 1, 2, and 3 each I was rewarded with Scavenger heroes. The general trait and the hero trait stack, so a recon who captures six units of Char B1 tanks puts 24 tanks into the stockpile. That core has a lot of captured gear. I put scavengers on my recons, who could be split to do only 1 damage pretty reliably. Two was unnecessary but convenient, while three was way more than I needed.
  • Vigilant - this is S Tier, in my opinion. Every tank crew is desperate for one of these heroes. It means that tanks can freely attack cities, hills, and forests. It means that a tank that has to end its turn in close terrain is not sweating bullets until it can move again. It removes a tank's big weakness and turns it into a unit with no flaws, that needs no support. Infantry that sees one of these is in serious trouble and had better hope that it has AT support nearby.
  • Aiming Assistance - I usually put these on recons, who are already doing a similar job with their Recon trait. You could also put it on support units like artillery or AA, since it affects adjacent allies. Adolf Galland has convinced me that it can also go well on fighters, which will affect all air and ground units around them. It's one extra star's worth of accuracy for adjacent units. Also, units that have this trait earn xp for fights they influence, so it's another hero that is good for inexperienced units to train them up.
  • Artillery Support, AT Support - I haven't had either of these, so can't speak from experience, but I will say that you should put Art Support on something with high soft attack and AT support on something with high hard attack. In practice I would probably put these on tanks (or recons in the early war). Tassadar, you mentioned that Art support should be on something that is supporting infantry, but it works supporting anything. Art support will fire just fine when supporting a tank, for instance.
  • Close Combat - I've never had this, but could Tac Bombers benefit? If so, wow.
  • Field Repairs - Can be very handy on units fielding captured equipment with low stock - the auto-repair does not consume captured equipment from the stockpile. I put it on a BT-7A, since I had only been able to capture a few. Another approach is to put it on your most expensive unit to save some prestige.
  • First Aid - I put this on Pionieres, since it's common for me to have them take losses assaulting a victory point and then hold that VP while my force moves on - letting them passively heal up the damage they took in the assault while they fortify themselves saves some prestige. It's not a great benefit, and I would mark this lower on the tier list than Field Repairs because it doesn't have the benefit of saving your equipment stockpiles.
  • First Strike - This is better than B Tier in my experience. In Panzer Corps 1 there were units later in the war that have low initiative but hit very hard. Assuming they exist in PC2, that's where I'd put this hero, basically eliminating the downside of the stubby assault guns. But this also eliminates the downsides of assaulting into terrain with harsh initiative caps. Entrenched infantry get to attack first often because their init bonuses from entrenchment aren't subject to the terrain caps, while the attacker is sorely limited. Put this hero on anything you want to attack into terrain with harsh initiative caps. Combine it with Vigilant on a tank and you truly have a unit that fears no infantry.
  • Ignores ZOC - handy for getting a tank into a tight spot or for flanking. A tank with this hero can become great for eliminating irritating AA or artillery that is stalling your assault - there are times when ZOC means that this flanking move will take two turns and so can be countered before it's complete.
  • Phased Movement - This is great on tanks, especially if you like capturing equipment. I have read that some people like putting this on recon planes or fighters for scouting purposes. but that only helps avoid AA, not fighters, so I have always assigned this hero to my armor for more consistent value.
  • Provocator - I put this on my beefiest tank. I find that in practice it's hard to get much use out of this. It may also be that it's not always obvious when it happens. When it does happen, it's great. It is possible to bait the AI because it's pretty predictable, but I am usually blitzing around and don't have the patience to set up traps in most scenarios, and it's fussy - you need to set the trap so that it can only be sprung from one or two hexes.
  • Recon - well, don't put it on recon units :). Air units might be the best here, since they have the highest theoretical coverage - it's not unusual or especially dangerous for an air unit to be surrounded by enemy ground units, each of which will be more vulnerable. Whether fighter, tac, or strat probably comes more down to how you use your air force. I usually want my bombers covered by escort, so fighters are most frequently in the middle of the enemy cluster. Incidentally, this is another hero who is good for earning experience - adjacent battles affected by this trait earn experience for the unit with this trait.
  • Tank Killer - I have used this on tanks, AT, artillery, and tactical bombers. I usually use it on whatever unit I am trying to get tank kills for the +1 to hard attack Award. This is only useful against tanks, and that award requires tank kills specifically.
  • Unyielding - I put this on the Azul Infanterie. It would probably be pretty good on Pionieres, too. If it works against support fire, it could also be great for bombers flying into AA.
  • Entrenchment Killer - I like this on Pionieres - a single attack from them isn't usually enough to shake the defenders loose, but a follow up from a non-engineer infantry is much more effective if the entrenchment has been knocked down more than one step by the first attack.
  • Fearsome Reputation - This is a fantastic hero. Should be two tiers higher, IMO. End your turn with this unit next to a lot of enemies and they're considerably weakened on their turn. Here's a way to think of the impact here: every enemy unit next to this one at the end of your turn gets hit by a light artillery piece or a light strategic bomber for free. Assuming the trait functions on aircraft, it's probably best there, like Recon, but I've had it on tanks to good effect. This was a really good hero to have during the massive engagements on the eastern bank of the Ebro River. This is also a rockstar ability if you like capturing enemy equipment since it really shortens the time it takes for them to become vulnerable to a small attack that forces a retreat.
  • Leadership - Like Recon, probably best on aircraft. I suspect that the unit with this trait gets xp for the fights it influences, but I'm not sure here - I've never had this on a hero who didn't also have Aiming Assistance.
  • Overwhelming Attack - Very good, very versatile ability. Should be at least two tiers higher. This enables shenanigans. First, capturing. If you surround an enemy, normally for optimal capture you need to get them very suppressed so that a 1 damage attack forces a retreat. That often means waiting one or two turns, which can be an onerous requirement. With this ability, no wait is needed - surround the unit, attack with a Recon with this trait, and as long as you do 1 damage (1 suppression won't cut it), the enemy retreats, and if surrounded, surrenders. Second, assaults. Has an enemy claimed a fortified position? Well, if you can strip its entrenchment to the base level provided by the terrain and then do at least one damage with a unit with this hero, it'll run out of that position. Think of enemy engineers in a town: if they're well-entrenched, then you'll need to hit them with artillery or strat bombers anyway, and probably do some good suppression, so this is less valuable. But if they just ran in there, this ability is huge. That engineer has full health, base entrenchment, and 8 close combat defense, but a recon car with this hero can chase them right out and make them easy pickings - or if you can surround them, force an immediate surrender. That's nothing to laugh at.
  • Superior Maneuver - Initiative is an important stat, and even a boost of 1 means 20% more of your shots fire before the enemy's. That's not a small deal. I usually put this on my fastest tank; even a 1 or 2 speed advantage over an enemy tank can really swing the combat results. Another possible place to put them is on self-propelled AT guns, which get a massive -10 initiative if they attack after moving. This hero could really cut down on that drawback when attacking enemy guns or exposed infantry. So far in the DLC campaigns it's not a big deal because the Tank Killers are few and far between, but will become more valuable in the later war.
  • Aggressive Counterattack - This seems pretty marginal to me, but I put it on my self-propelled AT, since infantry like to attack them and in the rare event a tank attacks them, this will make it even more painful.
  • Avenger - I put this on fighters. Those are the units I find myself throwing into battle while damaged most often, because the air war is usually very hot in the first few turns of a scenario and I'm desperate to eliminate enemy fighters and then bombers, so taking a turn to repair is just not in the cards. This helps them perform better in the face of attrition.
  • Prudent - Same as Avenger, for the same reasons: fighters.
  • Evasive - I think this should go up a tier. -10% accuracy is a star's worth of accuracy. I put this on whatever I consider my most valuable asset that is likely to receive fire. Early in SCW, I put it on Recons, which were often running ahead of my tanks and sometimes taking heavy fire for their trouble. Later on I put it on captured equipment that I didn't have much of. By the end of AO'39, my best and rarest captured Russian gear is evasive.
  • Fast Rebase - I think this is a higher tier. I rely heavily on air power and so the ability to put a wing where it needs to be without losing its attack is huge. This gets far more significant the better your heroes get. For example, I have this on Adolf Galland's wing, because every fight I'm in wants that guy involved. Taking down enemy aircraft? Galland makes 2 or 3 other wings more efficient, and packs quite a punch himself. Attacking an enemy fortification or armor wing? Everybody on the ground likes having Leadership and Aiming Assistance. I can't have him everywhere, but I an at least have him contributing every turn, thanks to Fast Rebase.
  • Readiness - It's hard to say with the '36 - '39 equipment I've been playing with, but this might even be a lower tier. It's hard to get value out of the defensive-offensive traits, because the units that you theoretically get the most value from (units that will counterattack hard) are the exact units that the enemy AI hates attacking. Basically, a competent enemy won't attack into these units, so the hero only matters if it elevates the unit from an attackable unit to one that isn't attractive to the AI as a sort of deterrent. Heroes who make offense better are much better overall, because you get to choose where and how their effects are deployed. I have had this hero on both my DLC playthroughs so far and have never noticed it having any effect.
  • Resilient - I put this on my most precious artillery that has room for a hero. I so far have not managed to expose my artillery this badly, so it has never been useful.
  • Survivor - I can't remember having been hit hard enough for this to matter. In any case, I got this for free on several units in the first SCW scenario by leaving them in the port to be bombarded by Republican ships, then swapping them out for a fresh unit once they had earned the medal. I'd probably put this one on an artillery, too, as insurance against my own incompetence.
  • Tenacious Defender - My miscellaneous defensive heroes go on a single Pioniere unit that holds my most important positions. This is one of those heroes. Could also go on a tank or a recon.
  • Ferocious Defense - another of these miscellaneous defensive heroes. Pioniere.
  • Consolidator - this is S tier. Overstrength is powerful, and this enhances it. If you pair with a Zero Slots or Reduced Slots hero, even better. Turns a strong unit into a terror.
DLC heroes:
  • Adolf Galland: Fighter or Tac Bombers only. +2 initiative, +2 attack, 20 prestige/turn, +1 initiative to adjacent friendly units, +10% accuracy to adjacent friendly units. Very, very good. Supports air and ground battle, and hits hard. I put him in a fighter, because fighters are more likely to be surrounded by enemy units, air or land, when I play. Fighters also struggle for things to do in later turns, and this guy is valuable all the time, and earns experience quickly. I usually put him in my least experienced fighter wing. They catch up fast because they earn experience for multiple fights per turn, including fights they're not even in.
  • Albert Kerscher: Tank or AT only. +3 initiative, 10 prestige/turn, +5 attack vs. tanks, +3 attack when defending. I initially had him in self-propelled AT guns, because they gain experience slowly. When I had green tanks, I would switch him to them. He's unquestionably better in tanks, because his +3 initiative is useful on the attack - it can make fights one-sided depending on the initiative of the units involved. AT has -10 initiative after moving, which swamps his bonus on most turns and minimizes his value.
  • Oleh Dir: Infantry only. +2 initiative, +2 speed, 10 prestige/turn, +20% base accuracy. Also amazing. The accuracy boost is massive, the initiative is big, but the speed is really the best thing here, because you can turn a 3 move infantry into better cavalry, or eliminate the movement deficit of pionieres and grenadiers. Put them on Fallschirmjagers to enable some really impressive maneuverability after a paradrop. Or on Gebirgsjagers to see what 5 alpine movement can do (it's amazing to see infantry flanking). Every infantry unit would love to have this hero. I put him on the Azul Infanterie, which made them into a frighteningly effective unit. Note: the speed bonus here seems to have a weird interaction with organic transport - I found myself getting less than 5 foot speed, and so removed the transport mid-mission. I haven't tested it carefully since that experience, but 5 foot speed movement is so good that I didn't miss the Opels.
Whew. That was a lot, and I'm sure I've missed some important possibilities - we're all blindered by our own playstyles, but some of these interactions aren't obvious until you've seen them in play (like Field Repair not costing equipment).

Tassadar
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Tassadar » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
[*]Fast Deployment - I got this early on in my first SCW run, and put it on an 8.8cm FlaK. That turned that thing into a very mobile tank destroyer with an AA mode. I loved it. It was tempting to put it on my 203mm artillery, but I usually find that I can plan ahead enough to make sure my guns can fire every turn without this hero.
That actually a great early game idea. It would really help against those pesky tanks in Spain.
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
[*]Steamroller - I never got this on a hero, but I got it for all my armor, AT, and recon units. I would love to be able to have this on a tactical bomber or an artillery with Lethal Fire.
That would probably not work since it would require Overrun in the first place, by I might be wrong.
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
[*]Fearsome Reputation - This is a fantastic hero. Should be two tiers higher, IMO. End your turn with this unit next to a lot of enemies and they're considerably weakened on their turn. Here's a way to think of the impact here: every enemy unit next to this one at the end of your turn gets hit by a light artillery piece or a light strategic bomber for free. Assuming the trait functions on aircraft, it's probably best there, like Recon, but I've had it on tanks to good effect. This was a really good hero to have during the massive engagements on the eastern bank of the Ebro River. This is also a rockstar ability if you like capturing enemy equipment since it really shortens the time it takes for them to become vulnerable to a small attack that forces a retreat.
This, and a few other traits are probably less appreciated by me due to my current play style. When all AO DLC come out I'm sure I'll do a Retrograde/Slow Modernization run with a lot of capturing and encircling, but for now I tend to try the combined arms approach towards setting up the maximum number of overruns possible and simply destroy the units outright and enjoying the new equipment as soon as it becomes available. This means I'll prioritize damage and mobility over suppression most of the time, but if I went for the slower, more balanced approach I'd probably appreciate it a lot more.
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
Whew. That was a lot, and I'm sure I've missed some important possibilities - we're all blindered by our own playstyles, but some of these interactions aren't obvious until you've seen them in play (like Field Repair not costing equipment).
I believe in the core game it's also possible to put Field Repair on those tiny little siege mortars and rail guns. This is a bit cheesy, but for sure powerful. But now that you mention it, that stock of KV-2's I have from Finland would be quite sexy if I managed to get a hold on a Field Repair hero early in 1940... :)

Agarwaen
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Agarwaen » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:02 pm

Tassadar wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:48 pm
Agarwaen wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:02 am
Legendary - Generates 20 prestige per turn - that's a LOT of prestige. The icon shows number 20, but it indeed generates 50.
Just tested in game. Legendary generates 20 prestige per turn, NOT 50!
You can check this if you have Adolf Galand in your core.
Famous generates 10 prestige per turn NOT 20.
You can check this if you have any of the other 2 special heroes.
Thanks! Verified it just now and it's correct. The description is wrong, not the icon. It seems i got that wrong by reading about it and not checking. Will correct the info and drop both by a tier due to that.
No problem @Tassadar !
It's weird/frustrating that such a simple bug has not been fixed yet.
As I see it there are 2 approaches to fix it:
1. Update the bonus to match the description in the tooltip, i.e. 50 for Legendary, 20 for Famous; but then it would require to update the icons, which actually show the proper current values.
2. Update the numbers in the tooltips - this should be easier as no localization pass would probably be required on them.
All they would need to do is to make sure that the bonus matches the tooltip.

@Tassadar, I like your list btw, very informative !

Scrapulous
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Scrapulous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:13 pm

Tassadar wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:43 pm
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
[*]Fast Deployment - I got this early on in my first SCW run, and put it on an 8.8cm FlaK. That turned that thing into a very mobile tank destroyer with an AA mode. I loved it. It was tempting to put it on my 203mm artillery, but I usually find that I can plan ahead enough to make sure my guns can fire every turn without this hero.
That actually a great early game idea. It would really help against those pesky tanks in Spain.
T-26s, eh? Have you met my oddly mobile 88? It's a once-in-a-lifetime experience for you :D
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
[*]Steamroller - I never got this on a hero, but I got it for all my armor, AT, and recon units. I would love to be able to have this on a tactical bomber or an artillery with Lethal Fire.
That would probably not work since it would require Overrun in the first place, by I might be wrong.
Well, maybe. But you can get Steamroller on a tank, then upgrade it to a Recon. The Recon doesn't have Overrun, but it keeps Steamroller and can still overrun units. So I don't think Steamroller requires Overrun. But some combat abilities don't carry over to battles that don't involve retaliation. For instance, I tried Overwhelming Attack on a tac bomber and on artillery and neither were able to force retreats. It probably would have been too good :)
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
[*]Fearsome Reputation - This is a fantastic hero. Should be two tiers higher, IMO. End your turn with this unit next to a lot of enemies and they're considerably weakened on their turn. Here's a way to think of the impact here: every enemy unit next to this one at the end of your turn gets hit by a light artillery piece or a light strategic bomber for free. Assuming the trait functions on aircraft, it's probably best there, like Recon, but I've had it on tanks to good effect. This was a really good hero to have during the massive engagements on the eastern bank of the Ebro River. This is also a rockstar ability if you like capturing enemy equipment since it really shortens the time it takes for them to become vulnerable to a small attack that forces a retreat.
This, and a few other traits are probably less appreciated by me due to my current play style. When all AO DLC come out I'm sure I'll do a Retrograde/Slow Modernization run with a lot of capturing and encircling, but for now I tend to try the combined arms approach towards setting up the maximum number of overruns possible and simply destroy the units outright and enjoying the new equipment as soon as it becomes available. This means I'll prioritize damage and mobility over suppression most of the time, but if I went for the slower, more balanced approach I'd probably appreciate it a lot more.
My first SCW campaign was like you describe. My second one was all about captures and it changed the way I play. I recommend at least trying it. I don't only capture, because I want my units to get experience and some materiel just isn't really valuable, but I do try to get at least a few of everything just to fill out my museum :)
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
Whew. That was a lot, and I'm sure I've missed some important possibilities - we're all blindered by our own playstyles, but some of these interactions aren't obvious until you've seen them in play (like Field Repair not costing equipment).
I believe in the core game it's also possible to put Field Repair on those tiny little siege mortars and rail guns. This is a bit cheesy, but for sure powerful. But now that you mention it, that stock of KV-2's I have from Finland would be quite sexy if I managed to get a hold on a Field Repair hero early in 1940... :)
I'm curious: why is that powerful? Don't they attack with the same strength regardless of their "health"?

fluffybunnyuk
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by fluffybunnyuk » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:47 pm

Magic1111 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:58 pm
fluffybunnyuk wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:22 am
Its essential if you have trench slog. It works well on a tactical bomber or fighter later on once the enemy aircraft has been worn down to attack victory hexes. It saves on having a strategic bomber.
I just got that at Norway North after getting ignore entrenchment hero. I dont get mountaineers so i have to slog it out with 2x10.5cm,1x7.5cm, 1 pioneer, 5 wehr infantry, 2 fighters,1 tactical bomber, and 1x88. I'm grossly underpowered, so i put entrenchment killer on the tactical bomber, and ignore entrenchment on the wehr infantry.
More attacking units that remove entrenchment means less waiting time dealing with entrenchment. Its vital not to be kept waiting because other units get time to get entrenched and it turns into a slog...
Attacking enemy units doesnt remove entrenchment for me. I need to use specialised units.
Okay, understand.

I´ve used one or two Entrenchment Killer Heroes on a Grenadier Unit, because I thought the Grenadier Units have no Entrenchment Trait, in opposite to the Engineer Unit.

Was that wrong?
Its just fine, playing a standard game it wont really matter too much where heroes are put.
What makes pioneers/engineers so great is that they ignore entrenchment, and help units with 1/2 the entrenchment.
The entrenchment killer isnt so strong it just remove a set amount of entrenchment. Powerful though if you use trench slog, because theres few units that can remove entrenchment.
Theres more to be gained from good tactical positions than where heroes are assigned in a standard game.

Tassadar
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Tassadar » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:04 pm

Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 pm
I'm curious: why is that powerful? Don't they attack with the same strength regardless of their "health"?
Just because they are so limited in terms of replacement pool. If you do end up not having a plane over one 24/7 the AI air force will gladly use this occasion to do some damage. Or artillery/recon moving just close enough to do an annoying hit when you think you were safe. This way being able to repair those accidental 1-2 damage hits would be quite convenient.

Kiane
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Kiane » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:56 am

I have that good gift tank from SCW and I have it OS 15 with 3 heroes: Ignores entrenchment, enemy doesn't shoot back if higher initiative, and ignores support units. Consequently I have removed artillery and strategic bombers from my core :lol:
Some other good combinations are: Double attack and Tank killer on a stuka, exterminator + steamroller + tank killer/soft attack one on any OS tank. Does the combination of remove enemy movement points and force enemy to retreat still just auto-surrender any enemy unit? That one is by far the most broken.

impossible
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by impossible » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:50 pm

there are ridiculous combos that breaks the game, out of which
- vigilant+ignore entrenchment on a tank
- envelopment + overwhelming attack on e.g. a recon ESPECIALLY coupled scavenger
- first strike+rapid fire on a fighter

are by far the most ridiulous. im sure there are many other combos which makes the game pathetically easy. also the verdeja 2 is a broken tank it needs to be MASSIVELY nerfed, its even better than the char b1.

nexusno2000
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:15 pm

Try playing with max 1 hero/unit. I promise it's great.
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Gfot
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Gfot » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:37 pm

impossible wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:50 pm
there are ridiculous combos that breaks the game, out of which
- vigilant+ignore entrenchment on a tank
- envelopment + overwhelming attack on e.g. a recon ESPECIALLY coupled scavenger
- first strike+rapid fire on a fighter

are by far the most ridiulous. im sure there are many other combos which makes the game pathetically easy. also the verdeja 2 is a broken tank it needs to be MASSIVELY nerfed, its even better than the char b1.
You are not forced to assign those heroes to the same unit. You're also not forced to use the "broken" Verdeja. By asking for them to get MASSIVELY (your caps) nerfed, you're basically asking the devs to take away options from the people who actually enjoy those options. Instead of throwing terms like "ridiculous" and "pathetic" around, why don't you try to realize that different people have different ideas of what's fun and what's not, and respect them for it?

Schwarzvogel
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Schwarzvogel » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:55 am

Gfot wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:37 pm
impossible wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:50 pm
there are ridiculous combos that breaks the game, out of which
- vigilant+ignore entrenchment on a tank
- envelopment + overwhelming attack on e.g. a recon ESPECIALLY coupled scavenger
- first strike+rapid fire on a fighter

are by far the most ridiulous. im sure there are many other combos which makes the game pathetically easy. also the verdeja 2 is a broken tank it needs to be MASSIVELY nerfed, its even better than the char b1.
You are not forced to assign those heroes to the same unit. You're also not forced to use the "broken" Verdeja. By asking for them to get MASSIVELY (your caps) nerfed, you're basically asking the devs to take away options from the people who actually enjoy those options. Instead of throwing terms like "ridiculous" and "pathetic" around, why don't you try to realize that different people have different ideas of what's fun and what's not, and respect them for it?
Exactly. Moreover, you aren't guaranteed to get any of those heroes in a campaign. I'm nearly through my historical campaign in the base game and I've never gotten a hero with Envelopment, Overwhelming Attack, First Strike, or Rapid Fire.

As for Double Attack, I'd put that in "A" tier rather than "SS" since I don't find it to be as versatile as the Rapid Fire heroes since double attack can burn through ammo faster (whilst Rapid Fire doesn't consume extra ammo), and you aren't guaranteed to always find a second target in range to attack except with artillery and aircraft that have Double Move.

Regarding things which "break" the game, let's remember that this is single player we are talking about. You can play it however you damn well please. One can argue that General Traits like Master of Blitzkrieg similarly "break" the game by allowing your tanks to ignore minor rivers and take shortcuts. I've even seen some people claim that AA Veteran also "breaks" the game (it doesn't, as the rapid fire AA guns largely become dead weight once the tac bombers and fighters are gone as their AT values aren't strong enough to harm late-war tanks or even threaten 1943-era infantry much.)
Last edited by Schwarzvogel on Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rifraff
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Rifraff » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:26 pm

Exactly. Moreover, you aren't guaranteed to get any of those heroes in a campaign. I'm nearly through my historical campaign in the base game and I've never gotten a hero with Envelopment, Overwhelming Attack, First Strike, or Rapid Fire.

You probably had a lot more fun than if you did get them.. Some of them alone, or in combination with others can turn a hard fought battle into a walk in the park..I had a combo where I could destroy a guaranteed 2 units a turn. How can the designer balance a scenario around op combos? They can't.. Why give us stuff that can break the game..

Rifraff
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Rifraff » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:33 pm

Exactly. Moreover, you aren't guaranteed to get any of those heroes in a campaign. I'm nearly through my historical campaign in the base game and I've never gotten a hero with Envelopment, Overwhelming Attack, First Strike, or Rapid Fire.
You probably had a lot more fun than if you did get them.. Some of them alone, or in combination with others can turn a hard fought battle into a walk in the park..I had a combo where I could destroy a guaranteed 2 units a turn. How can the designer balance a scenario around op combos? They can't.. Why give us stuff that can break the game..
[/quote]

Buffalohump
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Buffalohump » Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:26 pm

I am goofing around with heroes and combos after finishing AO 39. Does anyone know what to type for cheat NewHero to get the Consolidator?

adiekmann
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by adiekmann » Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:12 pm

Buffalohump wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:26 pm
I am goofing around with heroes and combos after finishing AO 39. Does anyone know what to type for cheat NewHero to get the Consolidator?
For most specific heroes, you type "cheat NewHero [hero name with each word beginning with a capital letter and no spaces], but you're right it doesn't work for 'Consolidator.' I don't know what it is for this hero, but I've won it the normal way a couple times before I am not a big fan. It only marginally (because of it's increase in strength) improves the hero's attack value which could be better accomplished with some other attack minded hero, while at the same time it takes up additional cores. You can offset this with a Zero slots hero but now you have only one hero slot left and still, limited added value. The only time it was handy was in the vanilla campaign I used it on a King Tiger because it already is a beast without adding attack enhancing heroes.

I do know the cheat for Rapid Fire 2x: cheat NewHero QuadripleGun

I forgot what it is for the 1.5x version, but hey! If you're going to cheat, might as well go for the full enchilada!

Buffalohump
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Buffalohump » Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:57 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:12 pm
Buffalohump wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:26 pm
I am goofing around with heroes and combos after finishing AO 39. Does anyone know what to type for cheat NewHero to get the Consolidator?
For most specific heroes, you type "cheat NewHero [hero name with each word beginning with a capital letter and no spaces], but you're right it doesn't work for 'Consolidator.' I don't know what it is for this hero, but I've won it the normal way a couple times before I am not a big fan. It only marginally (because of it's increase in strength) improves the hero's attack value which could be better accomplished with some other attack minded hero, while at the same time it takes up additional cores. You can offset this with a Zero slots hero but now you have only one hero slot left and still, limited added value. The only time it was handy was in the vanilla campaign I used it on a King Tiger because it already is a beast without adding attack enhancing heroes.

I do know the cheat for Rapid Fire 2x: cheat NewHero QuadripleGun

I forgot what it is for the 1.5x version, but hey! If you're going to cheat, might as well go for the full enchilada!
Ya that's what I have found. I have tried every phrase I could think of. I have a save core already that will go forward into AO40 with correctly gained heroes. It has a consolidator and zero slots hero mated to a 21cm gun. Awesome unit on defense. If I get a double support hero I know where I will put him. What I am looking to do is figure out what hero combos I like best while I wait and in general just tinker around refining my play style. To be honest I think I had a double support hero that I disbanded for prestige before I realized the goldmine of possibilities the new hero system provides.

Regards,

adiekmann
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by adiekmann » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:22 pm

Buffalohump wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:57 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:12 pm
Buffalohump wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:26 pm
I am goofing around with heroes and combos after finishing AO 39. Does anyone know what to type for cheat NewHero to get the Consolidator?
For most specific heroes, you type "cheat NewHero [hero name with each word beginning with a capital letter and no spaces], but you're right it doesn't work for 'Consolidator.' I don't know what it is for this hero, but I've won it the normal way a couple times before I am not a big fan. It only marginally (because of it's increase in strength) improves the hero's attack value which could be better accomplished with some other attack minded hero, while at the same time it takes up additional cores. You can offset this with a Zero slots hero but now you have only one hero slot left and still, limited added value. The only time it was handy was in the vanilla campaign I used it on a King Tiger because it already is a beast without adding attack enhancing heroes.

I do know the cheat for Rapid Fire 2x: cheat NewHero QuadripleGun

I forgot what it is for the 1.5x version, but hey! If you're going to cheat, might as well go for the full enchilada!
Ya that's what I have found. I have tried every phrase I could think of. I have a save core already that will go forward into AO40 with correctly gained heroes. It has a consolidator and zero slots hero mated to a 21cm gun. Awesome unit on defense. If I get a double support hero I know where I will put him. What I am looking to do is figure out what hero combos I like best while I wait and in general just tinker around refining my play style. To be honest I think I had a double support hero that I disbanded for prestige before I realized the goldmine of possibilities the new hero system provides.

Regards,
A hero that I like for the 203 mm gun is Artillery Support. I've gotten it twice now, once in SCW and the other time not until fairly early in AO39. It adds "soft artillery" support. So now that monster gun shoots support fire against soft targets as well. My favorite artillery piece along with the identical stats-wise 21 cm. Also try putting "camouflage" on it. Now most units won't even know it's there until it's too late and they're being blasted!! Otherwise, it serves more as a deterrent because the AI won't attack. It also makes it harder I find in this game versus its predecessor to gain experience on infantry units because the AI won't attack them when they have ART or AT support, especially if its got a couple of stars.

Buffalohump
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Re: Hero abilities tier list

Post by Buffalohump » Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:04 pm

I like the idea of camouflage added to the unit, I will try that. I primarily like this particular unit behind the line on a hill. It is it's counterbattery fire ability I am most interested in. I have also tinkered with the idea of adding the 1.5 Rapid Fire with this combo.

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