Commendation Points (CP)

[brettwjohnson]

Overall I like this mechanism, but a few comments...

1) The number of points the player has available should be visible at all times... Suggest adding it to the Objectives Window, so the player can easily check it...

2) When offered equipment - it would be nice to see a "i" (info) button on the new unit so we can look at it and decide if it's worth it... I took the French Souma tank in AO39 and still can't decide if it was worth 6 commendation points...

3) Don't know how it was implemented, but the player should be shown the dialog for a (CP) spend even if they don't have enough to purchase it... This shows the player the downside of previous purchases and/or not achieving bonus objectives.

4) Overall, I would like to see more opportunities to spend these, including some potential buy "A" OR "B" that forces the player to choose. One example might be between 2 good "minor" heroes (e.g., zero slots vs. double attack) of roughly equivalent worth.

5) Another idea would be to let the player use a *lot* of commendation points (~20) to buy off some of the "negative" general traits the player started the campaign with...

[Rhaeg]

6) If CPs do not go over from one DLC to the next (which I believe is the case) then that should be clearly stated somewhere.

[KesaAnna]

2) When offered equipment - it would be nice to see a "i" (info) button on the new unit so we can look at it and decide if it's worth it... I took the French Souma tank in AO39 and still can't decide if it was worth 6 commendation points...

You know something I don't . I completed the Battle of Warsaw . I'm dragging my feet and haven't played the Finnish or Denmark scenarios yet because I know we are going to have to wait for another DLC .

Anyway , I'm guessing the Souma tank came before you even went to Poland ? I never got offered a Souma tank. There were two scenarios in the Saar where I didn't get the bonus objectives , I can't remember now why . So I suppose I didn't have sufficient commendation points to receive the offer ?

I later equiped an already - existing core unit with Souma tanks I captured and / or got from caches .

But I suppose you are talking about a new unit gifted through commendation points ?

I would have liked a Souma tank unit , with unlimited replacements.

I suppose it is just as well though. Even with 80 core slots at the Battle of Warsaw , one - third , or even half , of my core still had to be left in reserve.

So we are already at the point where I almost dislike receiving bonus or gift units ; It's just another unit that will spend most of its time parked in reserve.

[brettwjohnson]

2) When offered equipment - it would be nice to see a "i" (info) button on the new unit so we can look at it and decide if it's worth it... I took the French Souma tank in AO39 and still can't decide if it was worth 6 commendation points...

You know something I don't . <snip>

Anyway , I'm guessing the Souma tank came before you even went to Poland ? <snip>

But I suppose you are talking about a new unit gifted through commendation points ?

I would have liked a Souma tank unit , with unlimited replacements.

Yes, this was a Souma tank with unlimited replacements. Got offered it after the French scenarios (IIRC, it was after the optional French scenario).

It's a good unit, although not quite as good as the unique Verjeda tank you get in SCW.

FWIW, I found that it was often a tough call to bring the Souma or one of my PzKW 38(t) w/ 3 stars of experience and a couple of medals. The experienced but weaker PzKW 38(t)s were generally the better choice for a given scenario...

[Tassadar]

FWIW, I found that it was often a tough call to bring the Souma or one of my PzKW 38(t) w/ 3 stars of experience and a couple of medals. The experienced but weaker PzKW 38(t)s were generally the better choice for a given scenario...

It was the same in PzC 1 and is in my opinion not only the prefect balance not allowing the new and better units to get out of control too quickly, but also providing a valid consideration is the bonus objective on a map really worth the effort, or can it be ignored - especially for subsequent games and on higher difficulties. The Souma was really fun to use, but not ant any point did I consider it critical to my strategy.

[FunPolice749]

2) When offered equipment - it would be nice to see a "i" (info) button on the new unit so we can look at it and decide if it's worth it... I took the French Souma tank in AO39 and still can't decide if it was worth 6 commendation points...

You know something I don't . <snip>

Anyway , I'm guessing the Souma tank came before you even went to Poland ? <snip>

But I suppose you are talking about a new unit gifted through commendation points ?

I would have liked a Souma tank unit , with unlimited replacements.

Yes, this was a Souma tank with unlimited replacements. Got offered it after the French scenarios (IIRC, it was after the optional French scenario).

It's a good unit, although not quite as good as the unique Verjeda tank you get in SCW.

FWIW, I found that it was often a tough call to bring the Souma or one of my PzKW 38(t) w/ 3 stars of experience and a couple of medals. The experienced but weaker PzKW 38(t)s were generally the better choice for a given scenario...

Just as a side note the Somua S35 you get isnt a gift unit. It’s the unit and you get 35 spare parts. So essentially it’s a gift unit unless you really mess up but at some point you will run out of the tank.

[Scrapulous]

There's also a Somua gift unit.

[FunPolice749]

There's also a Somua gift unit.

Where is this then? Because the 6 cup reward at Saarbrucken is just a unit and a lot of spare parts. Maybe they changed it but last I’m checked there wasn’t a gift S35.

[brettwjohnson]

<snip>

Where is this then? Because the 6 cup reward at Saarbrucken is just a unit and a lot of spare parts. Maybe they changed it but last I’m checked there wasn’t a gift S35.

I went back and looked at my savegames and you appear to be correct. The Souma prototype count was steadily decreasing as the games progressed, so clearly the fixes to the Souma were drawing from the prototype stocks and not unlimited.

DEVELOPERS - this is either a bug or a highly misleading commendation reward (text)
a) The text of the 6 CP spend clearly led me to believe that this was an unlimited replacement unit
b) If it was intended to be unlimited, it shouldn't be drawing down the stocks of the prototype Souma count

I would *never* have spent 6CP on the Souma, had I understood it to be a non-permanent unit.

PLEASE PLEASE make it clear in CP rewards if we are being offered a permanent unit w/ unlimited replacements (very useful) or a limited & exhaustible "temporary" unit (IMHO not a good commendation reward, unless very cheap). I saw this again after fighting the soviets, were I was offered "breakthru" equipment (KV-2s) and had to choose, look, and reload after I saw it was the temporary stock.

[brettwjohnson]

BTW - this highlights what I see as one of the few FUNDAMENTAL problems with PC2.

I don't see any point (other than flavor) to captured equipment. Experience (and the new medals) are simply too valuable to be bothered with a unit that you won't be able to keep repaired.

IRL, captured equipment was used because it was cheaper than making stuff from scratch... Also, while it's more expensive to make unique parts, it's by no means impossible.

A suggestion - allow captured equipment to be maintained indefinitely, but DOUBLE the prestige cost when you exhaust stocks of captured equipment...

[dalfrede]

DEVELOPERS - this is either a bug or a highly misleading commendation reward (text)
a) The text of the 6 CP spend clearly led me to believe that this was an unlimited replacement unit
b) If it was intended to be unlimited, it shouldn't be drawing down the stocks of the prototype Souma count

The original attempt was to make it a 'permanent' unit, but the script produced a 'prototype' unit.
So the number of replacement points was increased to make the unit usable.

Note: It is a permanent unit, it just can't stay a Souma forever.

A possible fix would be to add a Souma to the German Unit file, nonpurchasable of course.

[IceSerpent]

BTW - this highlights what I see as one of the few FUNDAMENTAL problems with PC2.

I don't see any point (other than flavor) to captured equipment. Experience (and the new medals) are simply too valuable to be bothered with a unit that you won't be able to keep repaired.

What do you mean? Captured equipment is not a new unit, you just upgrade your existing unit to use it...then upgrade it to use something else when stockpile of replacements runs low.

[George_Parr]

BTW - this highlights what I see as one of the few FUNDAMENTAL problems with PC2.

I don't see any point (other than flavor) to captured equipment. Experience (and the new medals) are simply too valuable to be bothered with a unit that you won't be able to keep repaired.

IRL, captured equipment was used because it was cheaper than making stuff from scratch... Also, while it's more expensive to make unique parts, it's by no means impossible.

A suggestion - allow captured equipment to be maintained indefinitely, but DOUBLE the prestige cost when you exhaust stocks of captured equipment...

I don't really see any problems with that, much less a fundamental one. It makes little sense to allow captured equipment to be something permanent. Captured equipment was usually used right at hand (especially in places like North Africa) or delegated to minor roles in places of little importance. The latter meant just a small number of equipment was actually used in a specific unit. If anything the game is way too nice when it comes to captured material.

Countries didn't go on to produce stuff they had taken from the enemy. They used up whatever fell into their hands and that was it. The only things that went somewhat into that direction was Germany producing ammunition for British or Soviet AA-guns (their own versions, not exact copies), and Germany using French factories to build some stuff, though even that ended up mostly changing over to German designs. Maybe add Germany using Italian factories to produce Italian stuff near the end of the war, but that's something quite different as well.

The option to switch a unit using captured material to regular material available to you seems perfectly suitable already.

[Kerensky]

BTW - this highlights what I see as one of the few FUNDAMENTAL problems with PC2.

I don't see any point (other than flavor) to captured equipment. Experience (and the new medals) are simply too valuable to be bothered with a unit that you won't be able to keep repaired.

IRL, captured equipment was used because it was cheaper than making stuff from scratch... Also, while it's more expensive to make unique parts, it's by no means impossible.

A suggestion - allow captured equipment to be maintained indefinitely, but DOUBLE the prestige cost when you exhaust stocks of captured equipment...

I think that problem only exists on paper.

In practice, I see many, many, MANY people using all manner of captured equipment. Even some people use captured aircraft that they cannot possibly acquire more stock of, because that is only handed out via script and can't be manually acquired through the surrender system. Gift units are generally of such high quality, it's great to field them because the are so advanced and powerful. Posterchild for the gift system was the Verjeda 2.

Captured equipment is different, because unlike the gift which is lost if you upgrade away from it, you can just toss some captured equipment onto your veteran custom Panzer unit, play with the equipment until it runs out, and then change into a normal equipment type without any loss. Somua's won't be grade A medium tanks forever, when you run out, it'll probably be time to turn into some variety of early Panzer III or Panzer IV.

Also, the AO Grand Campaign isn't so long that experience of freshly purchased units is a problem... yet. But don't worry, unlike the old GC where I didn't have a powerful script system to help deal with experience and power inflation and prestige inflation issues... now I do have it. There are plans in place, the question remains to see how they will be received though.

[Scrapulous]

<snip>

Where is this then? Because the 6 cup reward at Saarbrucken is just a unit and a lot of spare parts. Maybe they changed it but last I’m checked there wasn’t a gift S35.

I went back and looked at my savegames and you appear to be correct. The Souma prototype count was steadily decreasing as the games progressed, so clearly the fixes to the Souma were drawing from the prototype stocks and not unlimited.

...

I would *never* have spent 6CP on the Souma, had I understood it to be a non-permanent unit.

PLEASE PLEASE make it clear in CP rewards if we are being offered a permanent unit w/ unlimited replacements (very useful) or a limited & exhaustible "temporary" unit (IMHO not a good commendation reward, unless very cheap). I saw this again after fighting the soviets, were I was offered "breakthru" equipment (KV-2s) and had to choose, look, and reload after I saw it was the temporary stock.

Interesting. I wonder why it's not a gift unit. I agree that 6 CP is a little pricey for a prototype.

[Stormchaser]

<snip>

Where is this then? Because the 6 cup reward at Saarbrucken is just a unit and a lot of spare parts. Maybe they changed it but last I’m checked there wasn’t a gift S35.

I went back and looked at my savegames and you appear to be correct. The Souma prototype count was steadily decreasing as the games progressed, so clearly the fixes to the Souma were drawing from the prototype stocks and not unlimited.

...

I would *never* have spent 6CP on the Souma, had I understood it to be a non-permanent unit.

PLEASE PLEASE make it clear in CP rewards if we are being offered a permanent unit w/ unlimited replacements (very useful) or a limited & exhaustible "temporary" unit (IMHO not a good commendation reward, unless very cheap). I saw this again after fighting the soviets, were I was offered "breakthru" equipment (KV-2s) and had to choose, look, and reload after I saw it was the temporary stock.

Interesting. I wonder why it's not a gift unit. I agree that 6 CP is a little pricey for a prototype.

It came up in another thread. Apparently it may have been intended to be a Gift Unit, but there was an error of some kind or issue in the coding from having a Gift Unit you also can (If captured) have Captured parts for.

[brettwjohnson]

Captured & Prototype Units - Why they should be fixable after replacement stocks run out

IMHO - Prototypes & Captured units would be far more interesting if we had the option to keep using them indefinitely, BUT at higher costs once replacement stocks run out...

IRL - a good machine shop can manufacture dang near anything... Thus even when you run out of captured French Souma or Russian KV-2 parts, you should be able to keep them in service... BUT! It's expensive to do unique machining to keep a non-standard product in service... But sometimes it's worth it... And sometimes it' not... But it's (almost) always doable...

Thus, my suggestion - when capture stocks run out, prototypes & captured units should still be repairable, but at DOUBLE (triple?) the cost.

[adiekmann]

BTW - this highlights what I see as one of the few FUNDAMENTAL problems with PC2.

I don't see any point (other than flavor) to captured equipment. Experience (and the new medals) are simply too valuable to be bothered with a unit that you won't be able to keep repaired.

IRL, captured equipment was used because it was cheaper than making stuff from scratch... Also, while it's more expensive to make unique parts, it's by no means impossible.

A suggestion - allow captured equipment to be maintained indefinitely, but DOUBLE the prestige cost when you exhaust stocks of captured equipment...

I think that problem only exists on paper.

In practice, I see many, many, MANY people using all manner of captured equipment. Even some people use captured aircraft that they cannot possibly acquire more stock of, because that is only handed out via script and can't be manually acquired through the surrender system. Gift units are generally of such high quality, it's great to field them because the are so advanced and powerful. Posterchild for the gift system was the Verjeda 2.

Captured equipment is different, because unlike the gift which is lost if you upgrade away from it, you can just toss some captured equipment onto your veteran custom Panzer unit, play with the equipment until it runs out, and then change into a normal equipment type without any loss. Somua's won't be grade A medium tanks forever, when you run out, it'll probably be time to turn into some variety of early Panzer III or Panzer IV.

Also, the AO Grand Campaign isn't so long that experience of freshly purchased units is a problem... yet. But don't worry, unlike the old GC where I didn't have a powerful script system to help deal with experience and power inflation and prestige inflation issues... now I do have it. There are plans in place, the question remains to see how they will be received though.

Kerensky, I have a question that I hope you can give a best guess/estimate of an answer.

In light of what you said here and elsewhere, any idea of how big our core forces may grow to down the road?

I know you are trying to keep them from getting too big and all of those challenges that you mentioned when creating the GC DLCs from mid to late war. But so far from playing and seeing screenshots of the AO40 DLC, it appears that none of the scenarios really have you ever getting to use more than 80 core slots in any given scenario. But how big (i.e. how many core slots) do you envision our armies growing to down the road? Or should we expect than we are always going to be restricted to a relatively stunted core total?

The vanilla game had us up to 200 or so core slots by the last scenarios. Can you give us what your general thinking is on this at this point? I understand we can't hold you to anything. I would personally be shocked if it isn't substantially increased for Barbarossa at least.

[Kerensky]

A lot of that slot inflation comes from unit slot inflation post 1943.

[adiekmann]

A lot of that slot inflation comes from unit slot inflation post 1943.

So...with what you said in mind, the number of units we should expect to be able to deploy will remain about the same as it has been in the first two DLCs after adjusting for "unit slot inflation?" So we shouldn't expect battles where we are deploying large armies of 10 tanks, 10 pioniere, 8 artillery, and a whole Luftwaffe flotilla of fighters and bombers in single scenario?