There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

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Rhaeg
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There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Rhaeg » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:46 pm

I just took a look at the 1940 DLC steam page and saw one of the screenshots featuring a part of the Netherlands. Now maps in these type of games are never super accurate and I don't think that's a problem, but this one has quite a big historical inaccuracy. I've uploaded an edited version:

Image

The main problem is that the entire island/peninsula I've encircled with red does not exist at all in 1940! This is the Dutch province of Flevoland which only officially exists since 1985. The first citizens of the city of Lelystad shown in the screenshot started arriving in 1967! Work to claim that land from the sea would only start around 1940 but at that time there was nothing but water there (and one very tiny island that wouldn't even show up on a map of this scale). The dike I crossed out with red (Afsluitdijk) did play a part in the defense of the Netherlands, but should be somewhere were I drew the purple lines. Below is a map of the Netherlands in 1940 (which also shows the Dutch defensive lines and airfields).

Image

I'm sure most players won't notice anything since they're not familiar with Dutch topography, but anyone who is will notice it immediately. Now I will cry large salty Dutch tears whenever I will play this map :'(

Rood
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Rood » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:56 pm

I don't know how large the map is, but I guess the main action will be around Rotterdam and Den Haag/The Hague with all the paradrops.

It looks weird though :?

Patrick Ward
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm

It would of been nice to have polder in the Netherlands.

P
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Rhaeg
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Rhaeg » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:21 pm

Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm
It would of been nice to have polder in the Netherlands.

P
Even without that island, there's plenty of polder there already! Much of the area near and north of Amsterdam consists of Polders. Check this map depicting the situation in the year 1700, which shows the area on the left of the PC2 screenshot above.

Image

The bright green areas were already polders at the time and most of the waters IJ en Haarlemmermeer are polders too now along with the waters near 1 and 2 :)

Kerensky
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Kerensky » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:48 pm

Kerensky; wrote:
basvz; wrote:sidenote: one of the screenshots shows Lelystad. This did not exist in 1940. It started as a small settlement for reclamation workers in the 1950s (the reclamation was partly financed by the Marshall plan).
Interesting.
https://wwiinetherlandsescapelines.file ... s-1944.jpg

I'll make a note this map needs a correction.

Kerensky
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Kerensky » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:18 pm

You say big error, but I see something that comprises a very small amount of the total effort that makes up the entirety of the DLC. There is way too much involved in making these things in the speed with which they are made, so I am entirely unsurprised when the occasional hiccup slips through. But that's the great thing about a huge and varied playerbase. The amount of eyes and knowledge on the subject expanded more than 1000 fold, which puts a magnifying glass on everything in a way that's not possible internally.

So as with the LaGG-3 in Taipale, Ohrenthal, and now this...

Point out an error, we'll see about adjusting it and you'll get honored with a special unit name mention. Seems fair as compensation for keeping us on our toes. But as mentioned, someone beat you to this one. Find something else at odds. :P
Last edited by Kerensky on Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adiekmann
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by adiekmann » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:38 pm

I am not Dutch (well, at least not since the 17th century by my estimates) but I noticed something that confused me too about this map. First of all, I am guessing that it is Valkenburg Raid. However, that airfield was well SOUTH of Amsterdam but on this map is shows it NORTH of Amsterdam. I was wondering if they had the wrong city, or am I just missing some of the details of this operation? For example, were the Fallschirmjäger pushed out to the north and that's where they were making their last stand until the whole Rotterdam bombing event ending the war in Holland? Otherwise, I am a bit confused.

Feel free to correct me wherever my thinking has gone wrong.

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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Kerensky » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:50 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:38 pm
I am not Dutch (well, at least not since the 17th century by my estimates) but I noticed something that confused me too about this map. First of all, I am guessing that it is Valkenburg Raid. However, that airfield was well SOUTH of Amsterdam but on this map is shows it NORTH of Amsterdam. I was wondering if they had the wrong city, or am I just missing some of the details of this operation? For example, were the Fallschirmjäger pushed out to the north and that's where they were making their last stand until the whole Rotterdam bombing event ending the war in Holland? Otherwise, I am a bit confused.

Feel free to correct me wherever my thinking has gone wrong.
What makes you think that lone (dirt) airfield is Valkenburg AFB? :)

Patrick Ward
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:01 pm

Rhaeg wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:21 pm
Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:01 pm
It would of been nice to have polder in the Netherlands.

P
Even without that island, there's plenty of polder there already! Much of the area near and north of Amsterdam consists of Polders. Check this map depicting the situation in the year 1700, which shows the area on the left of the PC2 screenshot above.

Image

The bright green areas were already polders at the time and most of the waters IJ en Haarlemmermeer are polders too now along with the waters near 1 and 2 :)
Yeah I'm aware of that. My point is we can't have polder because of a texture limit.

Still. Would of been nice to have it. I suppose marsh could be used instead.

P
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Kerensky
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Kerensky » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:05 pm

Here's what the map looks like in it's most updated form. Note the size of it, and a certain land mass that has now been reclaimed by the sea. :P

Image

Rhaeg
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Rhaeg » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:14 pm

Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:01 pm
Yeah I'm aware of that. My point is we can't have polder because of a texture limit.

Still. Would of been nice to have it. I suppose marsh could be used instead.
Aaahh, that's what you meant. Yes, grassland with tiny little water ditches and a little mill would have been nice :)


That new map looks a lot better. I think I can see my home on there! :P

kondi754
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by kondi754 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:33 pm

This is called 'fan support' 8)

Tassadar
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Tassadar » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:21 pm

Can we take a moment to say how "destroy aircraft on the ground" objective sounds. I'm really curious about its execution however we shall see, but this really has some potential to spice things up and be reused, for example in Barbarossa. :D

Rood
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Rood » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:34 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:05 pm
Here's what the map looks like in it's most updated form. Note the size of it, and a certain land mass that has now been reclaimed by the sea. :P
That was quick :D . Looks good to me, well done!

Vorskl
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Vorskl » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:24 am

It's funny - the Dutch map shown a land that was reclaimed after the war;
but to-be-made Soviet maps with Dnepr, Don and Volga rivers should show more land than you see in Google maps nowadays as all but one hydro plants were built after the war.

kondi754
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by kondi754 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:44 am

Vorskl wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:24 am
It's funny - the Dutch map shown a land that was reclaimed after the war;
but to-be-made Soviet maps with Dnepr, Don and Volga rivers should show more land than you see in Google maps nowadays as all but one hydro plants were built after the war.
On August 18, 1941, the NKVD (on Stalin's direct order) blew up the large dam and hydropower plant Dneproges on the Dnieper, as a result of which about 120,000 people lost their lives in the flooded areas within an hour. It was then the largest facility of this type in Europe :!:
The advancing 2 armored divisions of the von Kleist's 1st Panzer Group had great difficulties with reaching the Dnieper line and the city of Dnipropetrovsk, where the dam was located, in such conditions.
I think this is a ready-made scenario for AO 1941

adiekmann
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by adiekmann » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:47 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:44 am
Vorskl wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:24 am
It's funny - the Dutch map shown a land that was reclaimed after the war;
but to-be-made Soviet maps with Dnepr, Don and Volga rivers should show more land than you see in Google maps nowadays as all but one hydro plants were built after the war.
On August 18, 1941, the NKVD (on Stalin's direct order) blew up the large dam and hydropower plant Dneproges on the Dnieper, as a result of which about 120,000 people lost their lives in the flooded areas within an hour. It was then the largest facility of this type in Europe :!:
The advancing 2 armored divisions of the von Kleist's 1st Panzer Group had great difficulties with reaching the Dnieper line and the city of Dnipropetrovsk, where the dam was located, in such conditions.
I think this is a ready-made scenario for AO 1941
Yes, it sounds like it has much potential!

Kondi, are you plying for a job on the DLC design team? :lol: You already hit a home run/scored a hat trick (almost) with your two predications with regards to AO40! :D

kondi754
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by kondi754 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:12 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:47 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:44 am
Vorskl wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:24 am
It's funny - the Dutch map shown a land that was reclaimed after the war;
but to-be-made Soviet maps with Dnepr, Don and Volga rivers should show more land than you see in Google maps nowadays as all but one hydro plants were built after the war.
On August 18, 1941, the NKVD (on Stalin's direct order) blew up the large dam and hydropower plant Dneproges on the Dnieper, as a result of which about 120,000 people lost their lives in the flooded areas within an hour. It was then the largest facility of this type in Europe :!:
The advancing 2 armored divisions of the von Kleist's 1st Panzer Group had great difficulties with reaching the Dnieper line and the city of Dnipropetrovsk, where the dam was located, in such conditions.
I think this is a ready-made scenario for AO 1941
Yes, it sounds like it has much potential!

Kondi, are you plying for a job on the DLC design team? :lol: You already hit a home run/scored a hat trick (almost) with your two predications with regards to AO40! :D
Thanks, it's nice of you to notice
However, I think the 'design team' is complete. :D

Vorskl
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by Vorskl » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:44 am
Vorskl wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:24 am
It's funny - the Dutch map shown a land that was reclaimed after the war;
but to-be-made Soviet maps with Dnepr, Don and Volga rivers should show more land than you see in Google maps nowadays as all but one hydro plants were built after the war.
On August 18, 1941, the NKVD (on Stalin's direct order) blew up the large dam and hydropower plant Dneproges on the Dnieper, as a result of which about 120,000 people lost their lives in the flooded areas within an hour. It was then the largest facility of this type in Europe :!:
The advancing 2 armored divisions of the von Kleist's 1st Panzer Group had great difficulties with reaching the Dnieper line and the city of Dnipropetrovsk, where the dam was located, in such conditions.
I think this is a ready-made scenario for AO 1941
There are radical opinions about a number of victims and results of this blast. Actually, it was not the first dam destruction on the Eastern Front: Istra dam (west of Moscow) was destroyed twice in late 1941: first by Soviet troops while retreating; next by German troops while retreating. But it was not as spectacular as DneproGES

kondi754
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Re: There is quite a big error in one of the 1940 DLC maps of the Netherlands

Post by kondi754 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:47 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:44 am
Vorskl wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:24 am
It's funny - the Dutch map shown a land that was reclaimed after the war;
but to-be-made Soviet maps with Dnepr, Don and Volga rivers should show more land than you see in Google maps nowadays as all but one hydro plants were built after the war.
On August 18, 1941, the NKVD (on Stalin's direct order) blew up the large dam and hydropower plant Dneproges on the Dnieper, as a result of which about 120,000 people lost their lives in the flooded areas within an hour. It was then the largest facility of this type in Europe :!:
The advancing 2 armored divisions of the von Kleist's 1st Panzer Group had great difficulties with reaching the Dnieper line and the city of Dnipropetrovsk, where the dam was located, in such conditions.
I think this is a ready-made scenario for AO 1941
There are radical opinions about a number of victims and results of this blast. Actually, it was not the first dam destruction on the Eastern Front: Istra dam (west of Moscow) was destroyed twice in late 1941: first by Soviet troops while retreating; next by German troops while retreating. But it was not as spectacular as DneproGES
Yes, this is the upper limit as the number of civilian casualties ranges from 30,000 to 120,000 in various publications, but I think the real numbers are 80,000-120,000.
Stalin's order to blow up the dam caused the most tragic hydrological catastrophe in Europe. More victims (about 400,000) were brought only by an order by Chang Kai-shek of May 9, 1938. Then the Chinese generalissimo decided to blow up the embankments of the Huang-ho River in Szenchou in order to stop the Japanese offensive.

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