DLC 1941 East Front ideation

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adiekmann
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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by adiekmann » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:09 pm

BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:25 pm
I'm all for actually being able to prioritise the capture the power station at Volkhov and then fighting my way to the (rather beautiful and slightly Roman) central square in Leningrad / St Petersburg and taking a tour around the Hermitage.

If you haven't yet been to St Petersburg, go.

If anyone can recommend an efficient, reasonably inexpensive way to do Volgograd from the UK, please let me know!
Too bad you couldn't go watch England play there in the World Cup two years ago! (I'm guessing that you're English, not Welsh, N. Irish, or Scottish!)

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:57 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:09 pm
BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:25 pm
I'm all for actually being able to prioritise the capture the power station at Volkhov and then fighting my way to the (rather beautiful and slightly Roman) central square in Leningrad / St Petersburg and taking a tour around the Hermitage.

If you haven't yet been to St Petersburg, go.

If anyone can recommend an efficient, reasonably inexpensive way to do Volgograd from the UK, please let me know!
Too bad you couldn't go watch England play there in the World Cup two years ago! (I'm guessing that you're English, not Welsh, N. Irish, or Scottish!)
English, sir :-) St Petersburg is quite accessible (Lufthansa flight from London City Airport to Frankfurt and a Lufthansa flight from there direct to St Petersburg) but my trip to the Mamayev Kurgan remains on the "dreams" list for now!

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by kondi754 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:35 pm

BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:57 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:09 pm
BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:25 pm
I'm all for actually being able to prioritise the capture the power station at Volkhov and then fighting my way to the (rather beautiful and slightly Roman) central square in Leningrad / St Petersburg and taking a tour around the Hermitage.

If you haven't yet been to St Petersburg, go.

If anyone can recommend an efficient, reasonably inexpensive way to do Volgograd from the UK, please let me know!
Too bad you couldn't go watch England play there in the World Cup two years ago! (I'm guessing that you're English, not Welsh, N. Irish, or Scottish!)
English, sir :-) St Petersburg is quite accessible (Lufthansa flight from London City Airport to Frankfurt and a Lufthansa flight from there direct to St Petersburg) but my trip to the Mamayev Kurgan remains on the "dreams" list for now!

Are you talking about hill '102' in Volgograd? :)

adiekmann
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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by adiekmann » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:21 am

kondi754 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:35 pm
BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:57 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:09 pm


Too bad you couldn't go watch England play there in the World Cup two years ago! (I'm guessing that you're English, not Welsh, N. Irish, or Scottish!)
English, sir :-) St Petersburg is quite accessible (Lufthansa flight from London City Airport to Frankfurt and a Lufthansa flight from there direct to St Petersburg) but my trip to the Mamayev Kurgan remains on the "dreams" list for now!

Are you talking about hill '102' in Volgograd? :)
Yes, I believe he is. Before England's WC game there 2 years ago, they did a whole commemoration piece on the battle and, if I remember correctly, specifically mentioned that hill too. It is VERY close to the stadium that they played in two years ago!

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by fabioterraplan » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:44 pm


Vorskl
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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Vorskl » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:55 pm

Bringing back life to this topic since 1940 has just been released, so 1941 will be the next.

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Kerensky » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:56 am

Vorskl wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:55 pm
Bringing back life to this topic since 1940 has just been released, so 1941 will be the next.
The conversation here is semi-related:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1072040/ ... 744062468/

It's not really going to affect 1941 East (assuming that is what is next of course) but the further along the campaign goes, the more important of a question this will become. I'd guess you are in the 'I want the historical content' camp, given the extend of the research into the first post, but that would be putting words in your mouth instead of letting you speak. :wink:

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Snake97644 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:42 am

Kerensky wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:56 am
Vorskl wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:55 pm
Bringing back life to this topic since 1940 has just been released, so 1941 will be the next.
The conversation here is semi-related:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1072040/ ... 744062468/

It's not really going to affect 1941 East (assuming that is what is next of course) but the further along the campaign goes, the more important of a question this will become. I'd guess you are in the 'I want the historical content' camp, given the extend of the research into the first post, but that would be putting words in your mouth instead of letting you speak. :wink:
Hey Kerensky,

On the Steam site you wrote: "Would players be honestly interested in a future Axis Operation that was split into two campaigns? Historical 1944 and Ahistorical 1944 (one package, one price, two campaigns of only ~10 scenarios each instead of one campaign with 15-20 scenarios) It's a valid question, because that content is far off enough that it's malleable. And player opinion matters, because if no one is buying the campaigns... they sure aren't going to be made. It's the definition of voting with your wallet. =)"

I quoted the above so give context to my support for such a DLC package. I know many want to play the historical battles and end in the ruin of Berlin in '45, including myself. However I also very much enjoy the ahistorical scenarios as well, even more so as they are fresh and "new" (and as History major I shouldn't admit that :oops: ). I think branching off the AO series into an ahistorical victory path and a historical defeat path is an excellent idea; an quite frankly given the debate I have seen, might been the only good solution to make both camps happy. The series could play out historically with little to no "what if" side branches. Then last AO DLC could be a completely ahistorical campaign, a little bigger since it would be a "one off" covering multiple years, say 20 scenarios or so. I am sure given the chatter I have seen online it would sell, but allow those that dislike the alternative history to opt-out.
This way the campaign could divert from the historical in a new and fresh way, and given the great work with other "what ifs" and lesser known operations that you have done so far, I am sure the dev team would enjoy it and do great things. For one I loved in PG 1 how the war could end with a lesser victory, as I have always found the invading America line a bit too fanciful. I know many have strong thoughts about this; they dislike the ahistorical or they're uncomfortable with a German(Nazi) victory, or whatever the case maybe. For me I enjoy the challenge of doing better than history, winning when historically there was defeat; this I think is the fun of wargaming. So in the end I say yes, make both lines of AO I think both will sell and the community will be happier for it. Either way it seems people can't enough, and I have had fun playing all of it so far :wink:

Kerensky
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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Kerensky » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:46 am

Ohh believe me, I also like 'new' content... perhaps to a fault given some feedback (Why is there so much Saar Offensive in my 1939 Poland Campaign!?). :lol:

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Dux Limitis » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:25 am

Can we go to the Africa?The German Africa Corp deserve a dlc campaign like in PC1.

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Scrapulous » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:54 pm

That Steam post doesn't seem coherent to me. It seems like the OP was playing a different Panzer Corps than I was, with all kinds of branching campaign paths based on player performance in DLC scenarios. I just don't remember the game that way, and felt that the main ahistorical path was in the Sealion DLC and that's it. The whole gripe just sounds like "I can see now that there won't be a Sealion DLC at the end of years of historical DLC releases and I don't like that."

I would be fine with a sequence of "alt-history" DLCs, but I really hope we don't start getting DLCs that have two (or more? :( ) exclusive, playable paths. I don't want to start having to keep track of multiple cores for each DLC. 2 cores at the end of '41, four at the end of '42, then eight, then sixteen? I'm not into it. And I would much prefer to establish a core of historical DLCs before diving too hard into alternate pasts.

adiekmann
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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by adiekmann » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:25 pm

I read the Steam posts too and it appears to be another case of "You can never make everybody happy no matter what you do."

I think it would be a wonderful idea to make two equal length historical and ahistorical campaign paths. I know even if they were entirely separate DLCs I would buy them. :D

I would also LOVE a fully and extended version of Africa campaign. And a separate Allied (British, American, and Soviet each) campaigns. BUT...I would want them after my current German core has completed the war first. I am not interested in putting my core on hold while I start a British campaign for instance. First things first.

Now for my AO40 feedback since I finished the campaign only last night. I think it's the best one yet. I love the longer length of many of the battle while still mixing some shorter scenarios into the mix. About the right about of difficulty too. No puzzles at the exclusion of real combat. Forming a good strategy I do not consider a "puzzle." I was a little worried about the Sealion part before its release because of the implications of successfully conquering Britain. How do you continue the operations in the Balkans, N. Africa, and such if Britain is knocked out of the war. Yes, their colonies/commonwealth nations could and would have continued the fight, but it still wouldn't have been the same. I love how you worked it in to be an attempted but failed operation in the end. That's what I was actually thinking before it turned out to be indeed the case. I understand the complaints that this is not realistic, but what ahistorical variation of content would be? Who's to say? One has to surrender some realism for ahistorical and new content and in my opinion what Kerensky did in AO40 did not go too far to break credibility. A book I read decades ago analyzed both British and German plans and also solidly concluded that if the Germans had proceeded with Sealion - even with the Luftwaffe winning the Battle of Britain - that it would have ended very badly for the Wehrmacht. The British would have sacrificed much of their navy to repel the invasion even with the Luftwaffe controlling the air and the numerical superiority was just too great.

All in all, well done Kerensky!

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Kerensky » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:39 pm

While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I'm still curious on the opinion of 'splitting' future campaigns into historical/ahistorical branches.

And yes Scrapulous, I am aware of the danger of early splits causing titanic branching problems down the road. Which is why we are just talking about this now, instead of having already seen the Axis Operations be permanently schismed by an alternate conquered Britain situation. :lol:

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Snake97644 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:02 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:25 pm
I was a little worried about the Sealion part before its release because of the implications of successfully conquering Britain. How do you continue the operations in the Balkans, N. Africa, and such if Britain is knocked out of the war. Yes, their colonies/commonwealth nations could and would have continued the fight, but it still wouldn't have been the same. I love how you worked it in to be an attempted but failed operation in the end. That's what I was actually thinking before it turned out to be indeed the case. I understand the complaints that this is not realistic, but what ahistorical variation of content would be? Who's to say? One has to surrender some realism for ahistorical and new content and in my opinion what Kerensky did in AO40 did not go too far to break credibility. A book I read decades ago analyzed both British and German plans and also solidly concluded that if the Germans had proceeded with Sealion - even with the Luftwaffe winning the Battle of Britain - that it would have ended very badly for the Wehrmacht. The British would have sacrificed much of their navy to repel the invasion even with the Luftwaffe controlling the air and the numerical superiority was just too great.

All in all, well done Kerensky!
Agreed, it was one of the first times in this genre where an alternative path ended in failure, which is refreshing as the ahistorical always seems to go the player's way with no disasters or hiccups

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Raganr129 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:31 am

First off, I want to say this was the best DLC so far, and I'm very excited for the next one. The individual scenarios were excellent fun, I loved that paratroopers were more viable throughout (something I thought was missing from many of the base game campaign).

Having read the Steam thread and this thread as well, I just want to add my opinion that the ahistorical vs historical content was handled really well, as a player that likes winning the war. I'm fine with the early Sealion being a 'draw', as this keeps future content still viable to players like me who want/will want the option to win in the end. If a successful Sealion happened in '41, then I imagine it would be way too difficult to put out additional campaigns leading off from that point to keep an ahistorical campaign going without losing too many players. I hope we can see more of this idea in future DLCs, where the player can make similar ahistorical actions that end up as draws or whatever but still rejoin the same ending point so that the campaigns can still link together.
"Would players be honestly interested in a future Axis Operation that was split into two campaigns? Historical 1944 and Ahistorical 1944 (one package, one price, two campaigns of only ~10 scenarios each instead of one campaign with 15-20 scenarios) It's a valid question, because that content is far off enough that it's malleable. And player opinion matters, because if no one is buying the campaigns... they sure aren't going to be made. It's the definition of voting with your wallet. =)"
Kerensky wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:39 pm
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I'm still curious on the opinion of 'splitting' future campaigns into historical/ahistorical branches.

And yes Scrapulous, I am aware of the danger of early splits causing titanic branching problems down the road. Which is why we are just talking about this now, instead of having already seen the Axis Operations be permanently schismed by an alternate conquered Britain situation. :lol:
For what it's worth, I think this is a good way to go and a good point (AO 1944) at which to make such a split. The question as I understand it (might have missed a reply talking about this), would be how to handle AO 1945 with such a split ending to the previous campaign. Could the player rejoin the historical track after an ahistorical/'winning' split in '44? Similarly, could a historical/'losing' path in '44 be made to join the winning track in '45? Honestly, I'd be fine with a hard split being in AO 1944 that locks you in at that point to a German victory or defeat in AO 1945, but I wonder what other players' opinion would be, and Kerensky's opinion on the challenges of designing such a campaign path.

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Snake97644 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:25 am

Raganr129 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:31 am
Honestly, I'd be fine with a hard split being in AO 1944 that locks you in at that point to a German victory or defeat in AO 1945, but I wonder what other players' opinion would be, and Kerensky's opinion on the challenges of designing such a campaign path.
I think the best route will eventually be to do such a hard split; finish out the historical AOs and then do an ahistorical branch. I would start the ahistorical split earlier after '41 and just lump '42-'43 together and then '44-'45. Just to give the devs more flexibility in what kind of ahistorical operations they want to pursue. Either way it just seems like the best option to keep everyone happy, and personally I would buy both lines.

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Vorskl » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:52 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:39 pm
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I'm still curious on the opinion of 'splitting' future campaigns into historical/ahistorical branches.

And yes Scrapulous, I am aware of the danger of early splits causing titanic branching problems down the road. Which is why we are just talking about this now, instead of having already seen the Axis Operations be permanently schismed by an alternate conquered Britain situation. :lol:
hi Kerensky,
I am 100% in favor of having historical only content (or maybe some small 'what-ifs' such as retreating from Stalingrad once Soviet start to counter-attack. For fantasy content, Red Alert -like games will do the job :)

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Vorskl » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:02 pm

Raganr129 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:31 am
First off, I want to say this was the best DLC so far, and I'm very excited for the next one. The individual scenarios were excellent fun, I loved that paratroopers were more viable throughout (something I thought was missing from many of the base game campaign).

Having read the Steam thread and this thread as well, I just want to add my opinion that the ahistorical vs historical content was handled really well, as a player that likes winning the war. I'm fine with the early Sealion being a 'draw', as this keeps future content still viable to players like me who want/will want the option to win in the end. If a successful Sealion happened in '41, then I imagine it would be way too difficult to put out additional campaigns leading off from that point to keep an ahistorical campaign going without losing too many players. I hope we can see more of this idea in future DLCs, where the player can make similar ahistorical actions that end up as draws or whatever but still rejoin the same ending point so that the campaigns can still link together.
It is a topic for a separate conversation, but IMHO unless you capture Moscow in early autumn 1941, there is no chance for Germans in other time periods to win the war - the Soviet relocated industry starts to mass-produce + lend-lease makes it is just a matter of time before Germany collapses. So the only 'what-if' could mean skipping Kiev and rushing into Moscow. But that means a very early stop at the Arkhangelsk - Astrakhan line and the end of war.
Though... even the fall of Moscow may not be enough - we know that Germans were running out of reserves while the Soviets were in process of bringing in reinforcements from the Far East. So unless you add a crazy fantasy element like divisions of Maus tanks in 1941 Germans don't stand a chance.
A more interesting angle though will be to play the Soviet side not making all dumb mistakes of 1941-42 encirclements.

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by NeyLutzow » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:08 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:02 pm
Raganr129 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:31 am
First off, I want to say this was the best DLC so far, and I'm very excited for the next one. The individual scenarios were excellent fun, I loved that paratroopers were more viable throughout (something I thought was missing from many of the base game campaign).

Having read the Steam thread and this thread as well, I just want to add my opinion that the ahistorical vs historical content was handled really well, as a player that likes winning the war. I'm fine with the early Sealion being a 'draw', as this keeps future content still viable to players like me who want/will want the option to win in the end. If a successful Sealion happened in '41, then I imagine it would be way too difficult to put out additional campaigns leading off from that point to keep an ahistorical campaign going without losing too many players. I hope we can see more of this idea in future DLCs, where the player can make similar ahistorical actions that end up as draws or whatever but still rejoin the same ending point so that the campaigns can still link together.
It is a topic for a separate conversation, but IMHO unless you capture Moscow in early autumn 1941, there is no chance for Germans in other time periods to win the war - the Soviet relocated industry starts to mass-produce + lend-lease makes it is just a matter of time before Germany collapses. So the only 'what-if' could mean skipping Kiev and rushing into Moscow. But that means a very early stop at the Arkhangelsk - Astrakhan line and the end of war.
Though... even the fall of Moscow may not be enough - we know that Germans were running out of reserves while the Soviets were in process of bringing in reinforcements from the Far East. So unless you add a crazy fantasy element like divisions of Maus tanks in 1941 Germans don't stand a chance.
A more interesting angle though will be to play the Soviet side not making all dumb mistakes of 1941-42 encirclements.
Implying capturing moscow would bring a end to the war, Skipping kiev would mean more than 1 million enemy soldiers on germany army group center southern flank, I think a more interesting what if scenario would be germany concentrating on taking the caucasus in 1941 instead of wasting resources at moscow.

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Re: DLC 1941 East Front ideation

Post by Vorskl » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:13 pm

NeyLutzow wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:08 pm
Implying capturing moscow would bring a end to the war, Skipping kiev would mean more than 1 million enemy soldiers on germany army group center southern flank, I think a more interesting what if scenario would be germany concentrating on taking the caucasus in 1941 instead of wasting resources at moscow.
So advancing to Moscow w/o capturing Kiev possess a flanking threat, but pushing much further to Baku - Grozny with all Soviet troops on your North flank is acceptable? :) Even in the real-life disastrous 1941, Caucusus was out of reach of germans.

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