Bf109z and He111z Implementation

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Kerensky
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Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Kerensky » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:07 pm

I have a question, and I'd like to see what the community thinks.

So up to now, we've seen some pretty interesting rewards coming out of the new Commendation Point system, and I certainly like to continue that trend. The appearance of the 109z and 111z is clearly a continuation and expansion of those designs but...

There is a question of what is the best implementation. So my question is, regarding special reward aircraft, are there opinions on how to integrate them?

Option 1: Gift unit

Pros:

Unlimited replacements
Ensures 1 of a kind units remain 1 of a kind

Cons:

No experience unit has a hard road to catch up to main CORE
Inability to upgrade existing unit into this unique prototype/unit

Option 2: Cache of prototype parts

Pros:

Can field more than one unit. (35) of something makes for up to 3 separate units
Can upgrade existing unit into special reward

Cons:

No way to capture additional spare parts
Running out of spares makes the unit unusable
Not newbie friendly, as the spare part system is semi-complex


So, when it comes to these extra special aircraft, what would you prefer?

Kerensky
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Kerensky » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:25 pm

My personal thoughts, for the record.


I'm of the opinion to make these units prototype part stocks.

1. We're in midwar, and having to experience up a fresh unit is becoming more difficult (although it's a huge boon to have training scenarios to assist in the catch up process)
2. Freedom to make any unit (new or old) into these special units is possible through upgrade to prototype.
3. Limited spare parts make sure that the player can't just flood their entire roster with these units, which is not the point of super unique unit types.

And with one extra caveat:

4. Maybe starting in next DLC after 1940, we should start inquiring on player requests for spare parts.

What I mean is, people can request certain equipment that they need more stock of, and it can be worked into the game.
Assuming we go to Russia, you're probably going to have run out of Spitfire IIs, with no way to replenish them. But if players need a 'refill', it's not too much a stretch to use some CP to capture a Lend Lease shipment. Or if it's some German prototype, a refill event can be offered straight up.

I'll have to think about that, but as people collect more exotic equipment, this might be more important because it will cushion that issue of limited stockpile of parts being a serious problem. For example, the first time you get the 109z, you get... (25) parts. Plenty for a single unit + spares, but eventually it's going to run out. We'll need to figure out if players need a refill, and when they need it, and work around that.

Tassadar
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Tassadar » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:23 pm

I'd say prototype - gift units with unlimited stock for me should be limited to represent either the non-German additions to the core, either awarded by allied factions for achievements or acquired via spying/captures (Verdeja 2, Il-2, Azul Infanterie) or earlier access to some versions that are normally not available yet in the core game, like the Panzer IIA in SCW.

Prototypes indeed seem like the cleanest way to add these with least complications. Acquiring extra spare parts could be done via special periodic events - in terms of captured units like a Spitfire this should stay in the form of trading CP for it, for German ones it can simply be prestige. The SCW model for I-16 for example seemed to be fine.

I also wonder if it would make sense to have Bf109z and He111z mutually exclusive, as in the commander's influence can be enough to force just one of these to be developed. This could add to repeatability and also add some decision making as to what is more needed in the core.

kondi754
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by kondi754 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:43 pm

It's not my prob this time, I always play without prototypes.

Scrapulous
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Scrapulous » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:17 am

I think it depends. If the unit in question is something like the Verdeja, in the sense that it's dominant over the equivalent tanks and will have a relatively long lifespan in the core, then I'd say a gift unit is great. These units don't have as hard a time building up experience (because they're better than what they face). It's also more important to ensure that there is only one of such a unit on the battlefield.

But if it's a unit that is just slightly ahead of available units, or will soon become obsolete, I prefer getting the limited number of parts. This lets me swap the crew in and out and allows me to decide how to manage the stockpile, and it requires that I pay closer attention to the available replacements and to which risks I take when I'm using the unit. Gift units are almost guaranteed to be useful until they're obsolete, while a set stock of parts requires me to be more careful about casualties.

Another distinguishing factor is whether the unit gives a tactical ability that's otherwise unavailable to me. If that ability is something I will never be able to replace with German units, like the Sahariana, then I want it to be a gift unit so I can count on having that unit as long as I don't allow it to be destroyed completely in the field. On the other hand, if that ability is something I can't get with German units yet, then I'd prefer for it to be a stockpile of equipment, so that it's a nice early bonus and something I have to spend time being careful with until the German equivalent comes around. Examples here include the Il-2 and the KV-1; in 1939, they represent things I can't yet get from Germany but will eventually (a tough ground attack fighter and a strong tank <> artillery unit). So I like that they're equipment caches instead of gift units.

I also like the idea of offering the opportunity to spend CP on replenishing equipment. It could be a way to use unspent CP at the end of a DLC and I think it could make some sense - perhaps you or your adjutant have a relationship with some quartermaster who is in charge of using captured equipment for testing purposes and can supply you with spares. But there are other demands for the equipment, so this relationship has to be renewed periodically.

Vorskl
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Vorskl » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:17 pm

The answer depends on what are we trying to achieve?
My assumption is to keep PC2 an enjoyable, highly attractive history-based game about WWII events. That said, option #2 seems more realistic/fair to the player. In the real life, prototypes were deployed in limited quantities (i.e. Soviet's CMT, KV-2, T-100Y deployment at the Winter War) with not guaranteed succession of serial machines.
Hence no matter how I like the Veredja tank, I don't want to see it in 1941+ campaigns as it would start turning the game into comics. The same thinking goes for 'Z' (zwilling) versions of 109/111 - if you want to introduce mutants, let's do that with a limited scope and let them die peacefully once the cachet of spare parts is over.
That said, I'd much more rather acquire this twin: FW-189
Attachments
fw-189--_02.jpg
fw-189--_02.jpg (46.81 KiB) Viewed 1146 times

George_Parr
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by George_Parr » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:47 pm

Some time ago I had suggested using commendation points (it might even have been prestige, if it was before the CPs were introduced) to be able upgrade prototypes into a full production model. Say you have a Sturer Emil or Dicker Max and want to have it as a proper unit, because you have little else with that kind of firepower. You then could go ahead and exchange quite a bit of your CP against the model being transformed into a production-series. Since it takes up CP, you get the limiting factor of people not risking to do this more than once or twice, since it means they won't be able to spend the CPs on stuff that gets brought up during the campaigns.

Being able to use your "influence" to push for German prototypes to be put into production seems a bit more sensible to me than somehow being able to replenish captured equipment.

As for the actual question: couldn't you do a mix of the two?
Hand out a gift unit with some experience, while limiting it to some available spares. Basically a prototype unit which you get without having to buy it. Maybe add an option to buy further spares somewhere down the road, to represent further equipment having been captured.

Retributarr
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Retributarr » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:37 pm

Prototype... Production Line Fever!:

"Vorskl" as well as... "George_Parr"... i favour both of your 'Postings' on this subject... as the best submitted yet so-far!. "Keep up" the great commentary and ideas!.

adiekmann
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by adiekmann » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:40 pm

Like others have already stated, it depends. Otherwise, I say "spare parts" that you can purchase or upgrade a unit to.

The Verdeja tank made sense. Early war, everything else you had sucked or depended upon capturing enemy equipment. Plus, as good as it is when you get it, it still has a shelf life of about 1941. After AO40 there will be superior tanks available to replace it - and fight against it - that will force you to end your relationship with it no matter how fond you have become of it.

I also agree with what some others have said regarding the balance of introducing these "special" or unique units. Too many overly powerful or fringe units unbalance the game and/or cheapen their attractiveness. If you get your favorite thing to eat every day, it stops being awesome. It becomes normal. Same is true with special or unique units. Too much of a good thing.

They are best when used or gifted like the "Dicker Max" was in the vanilla game. Only two were made in real life but very powerful, especially for its time period. The fact that this prototype was available in limited quantities made it special and affected your handling of it when you used it. It's like a RPG (like a Diablo I/II/III) when you find/earn that special powerful sword. If everybody can easily find/earn it, it loses some of its appeal.

So please be careful not to saturate the equipment pool with too many "wunderweapons" and turn this into "Fantasy General." And any that you do should be available in limited quantities and/or their effectiveness should be for a limited period of time.

DarkBlueInk
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by DarkBlueInk » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:13 am

My overall preference is a mix of the 2 options with limits. Captured equipment should be spare parts only or some other limiter. German prototypes could be gift units. But both should have a limiter for them, which could either could be either supply or obsolescence (i.e. strong in 1939, competitive in 1940, under powered in 1941 and likely not used from 1941 onward). The 203mm Russian artillery should not last through multiple DLCs. Otherwise, you might as well make the German 210mm available from the beginning. You could remove them from the game due to exhausted ammunition supply or some other "reason", but I agree with adiekmann - please don't tilt the historical nature of the game.

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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Magic1111 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:50 am

One possibility would be to receive a special unit as a gift (including the ability to permanently replace losses) if the player conquer a difficult bonus objective in a scenario. The Bonus objective should be difficult (more difficult than normal bonus objective where there is only CP to be earned), but basically feasible.

If the bonus objective is not achieved, there is then the possibility of receiving the same unit if the player uses CP.

But this is then a prototype unit.

Kerensky
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Kerensky » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:45 pm

Magic1111 wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:50 am
One possibility would be to receive a special unit as a gift (including the ability to permanently replace losses) if the player conquer a difficult bonus objective in a scenario. The Bonus objective should be difficult (more difficult than normal bonus objective where there is only CP to be earned), but basically feasible.

If the bonus objective is not achieved, there is then the possibility of receiving the same unit if the player uses CP.

But this is then a prototype unit.
Interestingly enough, we start to see some objectives just like this in 1940. Special Commendation Points, that don't carry over and only persist in the active scenario. So we're about to see how well that idea works in practice very shortly. :wink:

Kerensky
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Kerensky » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:12 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:43 pm
It's not my prob this time, I always play without prototypes.
CP Prototypes is very, very different from the Prototypes granted from the player trait. If that's what you're referring to.

kondi754
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by kondi754 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:35 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:12 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:43 pm
It's not my prob this time, I always play without prototypes.
CP Prototypes is very, very different from the Prototypes granted from the player trait. If that's what you're referring to.
If so I support Adiekmann, not to much of this wunderwaffe :wink:
However I hope I won't be forced to play with double-hull Heinkel :)

adiekmann
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by adiekmann » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:00 pm

On a side note, truth be told, I personally actually get more excited or interested in a unique Hero than some unique/rare new unit. From the Dev Diary, I found the bit about the unique female hero (I assume she will be unique!) far more interesting than the weirdo 109z and 111z.

And while speaking of unique heroes...I hope future DLCs continue to include more of them. While I am not opposed to recycling unique heroes from the first game, I would hope to see most of them be new faces. While I knew most of them, it did motivate me to look up and read about them after first encountering them in the GC. (I'm still having no luck locating additional info on Oleh Dir... :lol:) There are still plenty of panzer, fighter, and other "aces" from WW2 that were not in the first game, especially Allied Heroes. d

Kerensky
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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Kerensky » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:17 pm

I don't see how we would force people to use the 109z or 111z if we tried. :P

We'll see that Char 2C integrated in the Axis Operations 1940 DLC, just like we'll specifically see the 109z and 111z in a future installment.
But the units added to the game are added for the benefit of all. They aren't locked behind the DLC, but the new DLC content absolutely puts a spotlight on their appearance.

Whenever that game version goes live, people can give themselves as many extra 109z as they please, or start putting them in their own custom content or edited base game campaign. How they are implemented in the DLC (now that people have weighed in) will probably reflect some other limited availability prototypes. It won't be possible to replace all fighters and bombers with 109z by default obviously, but if someone really wants to do that for their own personal experience, more power to them. DLC purchase not even required.

Though we certainly appreciate the support, and hope the value of the team built campaign is worth that asking price. :)

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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by Kerensky » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:26 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:00 pm
On a side note, truth be told, I personally actually get more excited or interested in a unique Hero than some unique/rare new unit. From the Dev Diary, I found the bit about the unique female hero (I assume she will be unique!) far more interesting than the weirdo 109z and 111z.

And while speaking of unique heroes...I hope future DLCs continue to include more of them. While I am not opposed to recycling unique heroes from the first game, I would hope to see most of them be new faces. While I knew most of them, it did motivate me to look up and read about them after first encountering them in the GC. (I'm still having no luck locating additional info on Oleh Dir... :lol:) There are still plenty of panzer, fighter, and other "aces" from WW2 that were not in the first game, especially Allied Heroes. d
I think it's a shame they closed the conversion on the Steam forum. That discussion was hot, hot, hot. It was certainly interesting to see the negative reaction to something new, just like SCW and its various new features were not received with overwhelming joy.

It serves as a good reminder not to get too crazy with the new to the neglect of the old staples. But at the same times, there are big fans of the new stuff, and pushing new stuff serves those who are familiar with the subject and don't want to feel like they're replaying something they literally have already done before. And some new experiments are super successful. Spanish AI Allies was mixed, some good some bad, but pretty much everyone has their stamp of approval on returning Degrees of Victory through the CP system.

All I hear is 'add CP to base game' or 'I think CP should also do this' or 'please add more CP options' lol :mrgreen:

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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by sebb81 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:59 pm

I think they should be prototype, unlimited spare parts for something never went into serial production is a bit too much (like Verdeja 2, even I love this tank).

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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by brettwjohnson » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:46 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:07 pm
I have a question, and I'd like to see what the community thinks.

So up to now, we've seen some pretty interesting rewards coming out of the new Commendation Point system, and I certainly like to continue that trend. The appearance of the 109z and 111z is clearly a continuation and expansion of those designs but...

There is a question of what is the best implementation. So my question is, regarding special reward aircraft, are there opinions on how to integrate them?

Option 1: Gift unit

<snip>

Option 2: Cache of prototype parts

<snip>

So, when it comes to these extra special aircraft, what would you prefer?
I *enormously* prefer a unique "gift" unit to prototypes... I don't like how the whole prototype system is implemented and actively avoid using them... So for me, having a "special" that is a prototype is no reward at all...

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Re: Bf109z and He111z Implementation

Post by brettwjohnson » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:53 pm

I will suggest another option btw...

Imagine a "prototype" (i.e., early unit of your Army) with the following advantages:
1) comes with a stack of prototype parts, with a small number added ever scenario (e.g., +3) so you can keep using it
2) when the prototype becomes available normally, the parts disappear and you can do unlimited replacements
3) The slots for this unit are decreased by 33% (i.e., you get a permanent bonus for having been the operational unit to have experimented with this unit type)

This would make prototypes an interesting reward in *both* the short term and long term...

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