PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

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naturesheva
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PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by naturesheva » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:11 am

Firstly, I am so excited to see the annocement of PzC 2.
And I will be more excited if some of the suggestions below could come into reality in the future.

1. Terrain
I think dirt road & simple airport will be ideal to reflect poor infustructures, for example in Russia.
Dirt road will not act as road when the ground is muddy. Simple airport can only supply the unit right on the hex, similar to aircraft carrier. It may not operating in bad weather as well.

We should also make some terrain more meaningful. My suggestion is any ground unit in forest/swamp/mountain would be "invisible" until the enemy ground unit being right next to it. Units will be seen by enemy air units while moving in such terrains. This will provide player more choice of ambushing and sudden strikes. This will also increase the challenge for defending side.

Bridge and train tracks to be destroiable and repairable. Occupying a important bridge is actually a critical strategy in lot of battles.

2. Units
Pioneer/ bridge engineer should be combined. Their battle ability shall be decreased but have more abilities like destroy/repair bridges & train tracks, placing mines and setup temporary bridges. Maybe even building field fortifications?

Add HQ unit which is week in combat but can benefit surrounding ground units? Of course they are not purchasable.

Recon units shall able to spot "invisible" ground units within 2 hexes, this will make they have a much more important role in the overall strategy. Many players doesn't even have any recon units in their core through the whole campaign in PzC, while in reality recon actions are always the first step leading to a victory.

3. Hero
Everyone like heroes in PzC. But I guess they need to be improved. Simply adding attributes is not an ideal solution for me. It will be great if players can select their preferred attributes or special abilities.

For example, infantry unit may able to equip with heavy mortar, which allow them have an additional mortar attack before the close combat. However, the unit will lose 1 movement.
For tank unit, it could be multiple movements in a round, able to unlock aggressive mode (+attack -defense), etc...

Overall this could provide player more personal choices and combinations, rather than trying again and again to get a +9 attack unit, which is too overpowered in my opinion.

4. Supply
Supply sometimes play the most important roles in a successful strategy. In PzC, units seem too easy to get fully refitted.
I guess the supply system in Unity of Commond is a very good example. However, it will be even better if it can be simplified.

5. Spotting
I personally prefer the spotting system in OoB. Ground, air and naval units should have separate spotting systems. And a ground unit can see through the mountains doesn't sound reasonable for me.

6. Multiplayer game
This topic is so big and complicated. I may just point out a few of my wishes.
I think multiplayer game is the future of this industry. It should be more important than single player game in some aspects. If treated well, it may also bring a lot of financial benefits to the game developer. There's a limit to improve AI, the best opponent is always with another player.
I think the original way of MP gaming shall be kept, while a completely new mode shall be added.
In the new mode, players will play with smaller and faster MP only maps. They will have the same amount of resources in the beginning and can freely select any countries. Score board and achievements are also essential, player can unlock some units by the achievements and also by purchasing DLCs.
I agree 3D is the only way for future, and MP is the same.

7. Summary phase
At the end of each scenario, it will be great if a summary phase is added to show the kills & achievements in that scenario, and the total number in the campaign. A medal system for the players will be attractive as well.

8. Story line
It will be awesome if we can enrich the storyline through the grand campaign, to bring more emotional experience for players.
The game is historical based and scale of battle is relatively big. However, that should not stop showing the brutal of war and any beauty of humanity.



Much more to come when I have more time in the next few days.
Last edited by naturesheva on Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:23 am, edited 5 times in total.

Yrfin
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by Yrfin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:51 pm

The most part of told it is already made in PzC. Except 3D of course.
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naturesheva
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by naturesheva » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:56 pm

Yrfin wrote:The most part of told it is already made in PzC. Except 3D of course.
Sorry, not quite sure what are you talking about.

Yrfin
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by Yrfin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:34 pm

naturesheva wrote:
Yrfin wrote:The most part of told it is already made in PzC. Except 3D of course.
Sorry, not quite sure what are you talking about.
Im talking about things, doable by modding:
1. Terrain
- dirt road (just need to change cost of movements on roads for Muddy)
- simple airport (can be done by creating switchable unit "field airfield")
- ground unit in forest/swamp/mountain would be "invisible" (can be done by making switchable ground units with trait "camo" and new type of movements in forest/swamp/mountain)
- Bridge to be destroiable and repairable (adding new switchable unit "Truck/Bridge")

2. Units
Pioneer/ bridge engineer (can be made like one unit, switchable between Pioneer/ bridge engineer)
Placing mines and setup bridges. Maybe even building field fortifications? (can be done by creating new units: switchable Truck/Structure (minefield/barbed wire/strongpoint/bunker or so))
Infantry unit may able to equip with heavy mortar (can be done by adding infantry units ability switching to close combat Arty (mortar or light gun).

So, that things can be done just by modding in current game, without new version.
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naturesheva
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by naturesheva » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:38 pm

Yrfin wrote:
naturesheva wrote:
Yrfin wrote:The most part of told it is already made in PzC. Except 3D of course.
Sorry, not quite sure what are you talking about.
Im talking about things, doable by modding:
1. Terrain
- dirt road (just need to change cost of movements on roads for Muddy)
- simple airport (can be done by creating switchable unit "field airfield")
- ground unit in forest/swamp/mountain would be "invisible" (can be done by making switchable ground units with trait "camo" and new type of movements in forest/swamp/mountain)
- Bridge to be destroiable and repairable (adding new switchable unit "Truck/Bridge")

2. Units
Pioneer/ bridge engineer (can be made like one unit, switchable between Pioneer/ bridge engineer)
Placing mines and setup bridges. Maybe even building field fortifications? (can be done by creating new units: switchable Truck/Structure (minefield/barbed wire/strongpoint/bunker or so))
Infantry unit may able to equip with heavy mortar (can be done by adding infantry units ability switching to close combat Arty (mortar or light gun).

So, that things can be done just by modding in current game, without new version.
Agreed, but will be good if they can appear in PzC 2 vanilla game.

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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by jmiller23 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:18 am

I would like to see more variety in the infantry level. and some newer artillery.

1. some MG 34's and MG 42 pieces
2. some mortars 60mm, 80mm 120mm,
3. forward observers to extend the range of artillery pieces and accuracy.
4. I also agree engineer units need to have the ability to blow up bridges and tracks. in the original panzer general you used to be able to do that. or maybe a road building ability also?
5. maybe a command radius for say single units like lieutenants, captains, ECT..

I'm sure the new version will be great no matter what. keep up the good work 2018 is a long way away to wait though.

Intenso82
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by Intenso82 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:29 am

naturesheva wrote:Pioneer/ bridge engineer should be combined. Their battle ability shall be decreased but have more abilities like destroy/repair bridges & train tracks, placing mines and setup temporary bridges. Maybe even building field fortifications?
I suppose can divide the engineers into 3 units.
Bridge Eng, Combat Eng and Sappers (With the ability to add/clear minefields and build fortifications and etc.)
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by Rudankort » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:15 am

naturesheva

Great post, many good ideas, and it's likely that a lot of this will appear in the new game.

Some quick comments:

- Difficult to spot units (e. g. in close terrain) are logical, but in practice this will require to "comb" the map much more carefully and this is not so much fun from gameplay perspective.

- Combining engineers into a single unit might be too powerful, and if their combat abilities are significantly decreased then we'll lose sturmpioneers which are a popular unit since PG days.

- The idea to represent brutal war and beauty of humanity is interesting. But very difficult to do right. It might repulse some people instead of attracting them. :)

naturesheva
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by naturesheva » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:33 pm

Rudankort wrote:naturesheva
- Difficult to spot units (e. g. in close terrain) are logical, but in practice this will require to "comb" the map much more carefully and this is not so much fun from gameplay perspective.
Well, I kind of agree what you mentioned. Personally, I still wish this can be achieved, maybe not in the vanilla game, but at least can be turned on in modding. My main concern is how to keep the recon units in players' core, how to make them important as in reality.

captainjack
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by captainjack » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:38 pm

Recon ideas.
Chance to evade ambush or to take less damage from ambush;
Chance to spot hidden (camo) units within current spotting range;
Entrenchment provides chance of camo mode;
Remove the movement cost for stopping on the way (but other units with recon trait still lose out - this then gives specialist recon an edge).

If you make all percentage chances influenced by experience this will make it more worthwhile developing experienced recon units, - at the moment there is rarely a benefit in having a 5* recon unit. You could base % chances on strategic bomber efficiency but without the strength modification, (so 20 to 70% chance of evasion or 20 to 70% less damage).

Bridging units
Ideally bridge engineers should be a way to facilitate rapid attack so you have to trade combat effectiveness for freedom of action and speed of attack. At the moment, they don't help speed of attack because the need to spend a whole move to enter a river hex results in bridgies reaching a river part way through a turn and then sitting around doing nothing. When they arrive at the river hex they could have a chance of entering the river based on % of move remaining (typically 50% for a 2 move unit) + 10/star. A move hero on a bridge engineer then becomes useful as it can increase the chance of making a crossing after reaching the river.

Engineer
Allowing engineers to both break and build in the same scenario might be a bit too powerful. Perhaps you could have Construction engineers and Assault engineers as separate unit types but at the same price so you can do a free change between scenarios or in cities. Construction engineers should be able to restore some types of structures (bridges, airfield) where a temporary fix in a few hours or days is realistic (maybe at 1 str + [0.1 str /star]). Another construction skill (from the description of AT guns and engineers in Achtung Panzer!) would be to speed up entrenchment rates of immediately adjacent friendly units.

Bridgies and construction engineers should probably get experience for doing their job just as strategic bombers can get experience for neutralisation. There is probably a good case for making bridging just one of the skills of construction engineers rather than having separate bridge engineers.

captainjack
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by captainjack » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:38 pm

Recon ideas.
Chance to evade ambush or to take less damage from ambush;
Chance to spot hidden (camo) units within current spotting range;
Entrenchment provides chance of camo mode;
Remove the movement cost for stopping on the way (but other units with recon trait still lose out - this then gives specialist recon an edge).

If you make all percentage chances influenced by experience this will make it more worthwhile developing experienced recon units, - at the moment there is rarely a benefit in having a 5* recon unit. You could base % chances on strategic bomber efficiency but without the strength modification, (so 20 to 70% chance of evasion or 20 to 70% less damage).

Bridging units
Ideally bridge engineers should be a way to facilitate rapid attack so you have to trade combat effectiveness for freedom of action and speed of attack. At the moment, they don't help speed of attack because the need to spend a whole move to enter a river hex results in bridgies reaching a river part way through a turn and then sitting around doing nothing. When they arrive at the river hex they could have a chance of entering the river based on % of move remaining (typically 50% for a 2 move unit) + 10/star. A move hero on a bridge engineer then becomes useful as it can increase the chance of making a crossing after reaching the river.

Engineer
Allowing engineers to both break and build in the same scenario might be a bit too powerful. Perhaps you could have Construction engineers and Assault engineers as separate unit types but at the same price so you can do a free change between scenarios or in cities. Construction engineers should be able to restore some types of structures (bridges, airfield) where a temporary fix in a few hours or days is realistic (maybe at 1 str + [0.1 str /star]). Another construction skill (from the description of AT guns and engineers in Achtung Panzer!) would be to speed up entrenchment rates of immediately adjacent friendly units.

Bridgies and construction engineers should probably get experience for doing their job just as strategic bombers can get experience for neutralisation. There is probably a good case for making bridging just one of the skills of construction engineers rather than having separate bridge engineers.

Yrfin
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by Yrfin » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:21 pm

captainjack wrote:Recon ideas.
Chance to evade ambush or to take less damage from ambush;
Chance to spot hidden (camo) units within current spotting range
Entrenchment provides chance of camo mode;
Why? In what then sense of an ambush?
Recons MUST be ambushed too. Reconnaissance are risky task.
You doesn't want to be ambushed? Keep very carefully in places where the ambush is possible.
Camo and Hiding - rare things.
Don't need mix Camo with Entrenchment.
And chance, chance, chance... We are play in roulette ?
captainjack wrote: Remove the movement cost for stopping on the way (but other units with recon trait still lose out - this then gives specialist recon an edge).
Agreed. Recons must have differenсes from units with trait "reconmove." But whats a problem with stopping ? :roll:
captainjack wrote: "..all percentage chances influenced by experience...20 to 70% chance of evasion or 20 to 70% less damage...".
All things with % and "...chances influenced by" are overcomplicated and not intuitive. IMHO.
Ability to facilitate rapid attack after crossing a rivers is a SturmPioniers option, not Enginieers.
But Bridge engineers can be have ability to set/remove minefields, structures and so on (like Sappers).
Last edited by Yrfin on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by proline » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:42 am

Yrfin wrote:Recons MUST be ambushed too. Reconnaissance are risky task.
Risky to the soldiers involved, absolutely. Risky to the governments involved, not at all. All sides gained valuable intel through recon despite spending a tiny portion their budget on it. However, in PzC recon is astronomically expensive. Deploying 2 recon units on most scenarios takes up over 5% of your spots. They are scarcely any better at actually spotting enemy units than tanks, which are much more useful and survivable, and recon is seldom necessary as the game is a bunch of scripted triggers that you quickly memorize. The cost/benefit ratio of recon must be lowered one way or another, and the best way to do that is to make the units themselves more survivable whether you consider that historic or not.

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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by Yrfin » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:58 am

proline wrote:... recon is seldom necessary as the game is a bunch of scripted triggers that you quickly memorize.
So its a lack of Map/Scenarios design, but not only recon's problem. Just need to make a Scenarios replayable (variable deployment, victory condition and so).
proline wrote:The cost/benefit ratio of recon must be lowered one way or another, and the best way to do that is to make the units themselves more survivable
Recon must do a things, which other units can't do.
Disguise and invisibility afield, the increased passability on the terrain, big range of action, high maneuverability. This must make Recon irreplaceable, but not invulnerable.
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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by AceDuceTrey » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:05 pm

RISTA (Reconnaissance, Intelligence, surveillance, and target acquisition) is considered the 1st and most important of the 5 operational warfare roles.
Historically, dedicated recon units and regular units performing recon/advanced force roles take more casualties than any other type unit. (Nobody
likes to be "on point").They gain their "special" skills primarily by being given extra training in targets identification, camouflage, small team actions and additional enhanced optical devices and communications. To me, this means they are better at spotting the enemy and hiding from the enemy, i.e., lower signature. An authentic war game would give units a specific spotting capability, signature, and hiding capability at two ranges: close (1 hex?) and far (2 or 3
hexes?). For example, infantry would have a large close spotting but lower signature and long range spotting values. A tank, with its elevated turret and
enhanced gunnery optics would have a low close spotting value, but a higher long range spotting and signature values. Recon units should be considered
to be the best of both. Specific terrain should also have an "incidental" hiding/concealment value to overcome in order to spot targets in/through them.
Adverse weather should also suppress spotting values.

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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by DocDesastro » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:23 pm

jmiller23 wrote:I would like to see more variety in the infantry level. and some newer artillery.

1. some MG 34's and MG 42 pieces
2. some mortars 60mm, 80mm 120mm,
3. forward observers to extend the range of artillery pieces and accuracy.
4. I also agree engineer units need to have the ability to blow up bridges and tracks. in the original panzer general you used to be able to do that. or maybe a road building ability also?
5. maybe a command radius for say single units like lieutenants, captains, ECT..

I'm sure the new version will be great no matter what. keep up the good work 2018 is a long way away to wait though.
It would be also great by upgrading the units with prestige instead of creating new unit types.
Imagine a standard wehrmacht infantry and then you can equip them with MG34 which might add ground defense (later upgrade with MG 42 which adds more or even gets a small AA boost). You can add mortars which add initiative and ground attack.
Heroes and/or officers in the unit can get XP adding stats and feats to the unit. Like giving a unit a smaller bonus that a regular unit has like the officer being a pioneer being able to instill a fraction of what a pioneer does to a normal unit if possible and applyable.

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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by pauldcl » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:39 pm

I want to play the Italians. There I said it. Little flamethrower tanks everywhere. Burn..

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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by AceDuceTrey » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:07 pm

All Artillery Ranges should not be set at 3 hexes- for regiment/brigade sized hexes (~2 mile/3+ km "frontages") this is accurate only for 75mm field guns and 100-105mm howitzers. However, most 150-155mm howitzers would reach 4 hexes and 200-210mm 5 hexes. Heavy guns like 155mm Long Tom 7 and German 170mm 9 hexes. This is important because these howitzers/guns were designed for different "operational roles". The light 75/105mm were used as DIRECT support (DS) artillery for a specific Rgt/Bde. thus each Division had as many DS Battalions as Rgts/Bdes. They conducted Roles 4 (bombardment), 5 (counter anti-tank), and 8 (infantry suppression/final protective fire). The medium and heavy howitzers were used as GENERAL support for the whole Division; and REINFORCING (GSR) conducting Role 3 (Counter-Battery) while reinforcing a designated DS Battalion in role 4. Heavy GUNS (105mm and larger) were used in GENERAL support (GS) of the Division/Corps for Role 2 (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) and Role 3. Divisional artillery regiments/brigades were always composites of multiple sized
cannons usually of 3 DS and 1 GSR battalions.

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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by ivanov » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:32 pm

I'm not sure if that has been suggested ( for sure it has ) but I would like to see the introduction of unit unit swapping.

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Re: PzC 2 gameplay suggestions

Post by AceDuceTrey » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:29 am

One more suggestion about the "poor infantry" representation. They pretty much existed on the battlefield in 3 modes:
1. Mobile/moving/hasty attack without the support of their support weapons (tripode MMGs, mortars, fied cannons/infantry guns, etc.).
2. Deployed/hasty defence using available cover/concealment with support weapons available for defensive fires
3. Deliberate Defense: 2. above but with improved entrenchments and final defensive fires from supporting artillery within range; or,
adjacent Attack with prepatory (bombardment) artillery fires against objective.

P.S. No unit can stand up to infantry type units in the final (<50m) assault.

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