Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

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Molve
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Molve » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am

Rudankort wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:25 pm
Different players have different preferences. Many people don't want to take any chances and in fact get annoyed when they miss a certain cool unit in their campaign. This is exactly the reason why topics like this exist. This approach is also not so good from replayability perspective, because you always get the same thing on every play through. Ultimately, many people like captured units because they like to have something cool and unique in their cores.

Forcing the enemy to surrender is not equal to "go soft" on him, and no sane commander would insist on fighting and taking losses when he could avoid it and still defeat the opposing enemy force.

There will be enough random events in the new game (in particular, heroes clearly fall into this category). In any event, nothing is set in stone, and we will keep watching player's feedback. Also, this feature will likely be optional, so you can turn it off if you don't like it.
Thanks for replying but I might have failed to make my point clear.

You wrote "Captured units in Panzer Corps campaigns were so popular, we’ve decided to make them a part of core game mechanics. When you force enemy unit to surrender, its equipment is captured and added to a pool."

That is not adding what was so popular to the game. That is taking the name of a popular feature and applying it to some other new feature. To me that is a logical fallacy. It wasn't the name that was popular, it was the "treasure hunt", the unexpected lottery win that was popular.

In this regard, my objection is not to your new game feature. My objection is when you say you're adding it because "captured units were popular".

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Then you write: "Later you can use this pool to create new units or replenish existing ones for free. This adds yet another tactical consideration: shall I destroy this unit, or try to make it surrender instead?"

As a second, separate, concern, please don't make us want to suppress Tiger tanks or good Soviet self-propelled artillery in order to capture the equipment (when playing US and German commanders, respectively). I genuinely think that's a bad idea - to view enemy units as possible loot boxes.

I strongly encourage you to not add this as some generic play mechanism, always available (and adding a global switch to turn it off isn't enough).

I realize what you want to address are the random nature of the original implementation. I totally get gamers want to "collect them all". This is most easily fixed by marking "loot hexes" on the map - take this hex, capture that unit.

But please do not let us select what we loot ourselves - that misses the point of suddenly getting some quaint French tank or some slow russian AT. The only way to balance this is by YOU (the scenario designer) selecting what unit that will be capturable.

And pretty please do not implement this in a way that makes us minmax how we deal with elite SS Waffen Tiger 2 tanks just to be able to drive them tanks ourselves. That to me feels entirely unrealistic (unless we're talking about tanks/planes in storage, like when Hitler got thise Czech tanks - or, I guess, capital ship naval units). Whatever you make it, please don't make it into a core feature that you take into account when balancing the game.

Thank you for listening.

Rudankort
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Rudankort » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:52 pm

Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
In this regard, my objection is not to your new game feature. My objection is when you say you're adding it because "captured units were popular".
My choice of wording stems from the fact that I consider captured units important, while exact mechanics of getting them insignificant.There is no such thing as a "standard" captured units mechanic in Panzer Corps. They existed in unit list, but how to use them was always at the discretion of content designers. In fact, there are more captured units simply preplaced on the maps in Panzer Corps than captured units obtained through a trigger.

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Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
I realize what you want to address are the random nature of the original implementation. I totally get gamers want to "collect them all". This is most easily fixed by marking "loot hexes" on the map - take this hex, capture that unit.
In fact no, I don't consider the new mechanic merely a patch to the old one, and there are many reasons why it was implemented this way.

1. In Panzer Corps 2, human-designed content and randomly generated content both occupy an important place. We can no longer rely on scenario designer placing captured units, because with random content there is no designer. We also wanted captured units to feature in single scenarios, Multiplayer games etc.

2. In Panzer Corps, captured units were always a handy work. Not just for content designer, but also for the graphics team making the right icons. This resulted in huge imbalance of captured units. The germans have all kinds of captured tanks in their unit list, the brits have a huge array of captured german panzers. USA? Almost nothing (one captured Panther). Soviets? Zero. Minor nations? No chance. But even minor nations used captured equipment in ww2. A quick search yields many images:
https://cs9.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016 ... 671653.jpg (Soviet tank captured by finns)
https://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016 ... 980307.jpg (italian tank captured by australians)
https://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016 ... 625502.jpg (german tank captured by yugoslavs)
The list goes on. With new mechanic, every player and every nation is in equal conditions.

3. New mechanics of captured units is far more complex and far reaching than the old one. For example, now captured equipment is limited, so you need to use it more carefully. Maybe you will want to save your captured units and use in special occasions only. Also, when you see your opponent's high-end unit, you may want to capture it, but your opponent does not want it to be captured and used against him, so this will be an additional consideration for him. Will you outsmart your opponent, or will he outsmart you? That is the question. Especially in Multiplayer this can be very important.

4. Captured units mechanic is synergistic with the new encirclements mechanic, which seemed very fitting to me, because this reflects historical reality.

5. New mechanics rewards mastery of game rules and mechanics, like the role of artillery and strategic bombers, suppression, ammo, encirclements, entrenchment, retreats etc. And I actually want to give the players an additional incentive to learn all these rules. You keep saying how we are going to suppress all those Tigers, but we remember how hard it is to do it. In a recent discussion I posted this image:

Image

Six ISU-152s cannot suppress a single Panther! So yeah, let people try it and learn more game rules in the process.
Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
I genuinely think that's a bad idea - to view enemy units as possible loot boxes.
They already were loot boxes in Panzer Corps: you could earn a lot of prestige by forcing enemy units to surrender. We are taking it one step further.
Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
And pretty please do not implement this in a way that makes us minmax how we deal with elite SS Waffen Tiger 2 tanks just to be able to drive them tanks ourselves. That to me feels entirely unrealistic (unless we're talking about tanks/planes in storage, like when Hitler got thise Czech tanks - or, I guess, capital ship naval units).
I kinda understand where you are coming from. On the first glance, the new mechanic might look a bit too "gamey" and strange. But I think that it is actually very realistic. We know very well that captured equipment was very widely used in ww2 by all sides. We also know that enemy units surrendering is never a random event, but a result of your very deliberate actions. The whole point of Blitzkrieg was to cut supply lines and encircle the enemy, which resulted in enemy units surrendering en masse. Finally, captured equipment was never available in unlimited numbers. The new mechanics reflects all these realities.

Main difference with real life is, in real life Tigers were not those super-cool ultimate weapons which they have become in wargames, and they were not produced in enough numbers to affect the course of the war even for the country which originally produced them. So, they were never targeted for capturing specifically.

Molve
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 490
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Molve » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:51 am

Thank you for your insightful reply Rudankort.

In fact, I hope you won't be angry if I say I am thankful I pressed you on this, because now we have lots more context to the feature! ;)

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