Tank attack range?

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El_Condoro
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Tank attack range?

Post by El_Condoro » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:21 am

Although I was involved in the early stages of PzC, I have come late to the table with its successor. From what I have seen so far, I will certainly be buying it when it comes out - a very elegant system it seems (from screen shots ahead of live game play demos - I looked for a sample of game play, are there any?) I created a number of scenarios and campaigns for PzC that probably don't work any more but I am happy to see that porting into PzC2 is supported.

My question is about the ranges of tanks (and other unit types) in PzC2: will guns like the 88 be able to fire to 2 hexes, for example? This was a major change from PG to PG2 (along with the so-called overrun bug) but I haven't seen it mentioned in the dev diaries.

For now, thanks for one more thing to look forward to in 2019! Cheers.

uran21
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by uran21 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:51 am

No range attacks for tanks or 88 or anything that hasn't had it before. Overrun is implemented though.

Currently, there is a rule where ranged units can return fire if attacked by another ranged unit the way ships behaved originally. So now artillery returns fire if attacked by another artillery.
I did an experimental test by giving range to tanks and they behave that way as well. Maybe it is better to have this feature of return fire moddable.

kondi754
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by kondi754 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:29 am

It would only make sense if the attacked unit didn't respond with fire.
For example, Tiger I attacks the Sherman M4 from a distance of 2 hexes, because has such a range, but Sherman can't answer him with fire because it would be against the realities
On the other hand, it shouldn't only connect to 88mm guns and bigger, after all Firefly's 17pdr at gun had 76.2mm and destroyed Tigers with 1850m (the same range like Tiger's, but I read somewhere that there was a case when Firefly destroyed the German Pz IVJ from a distance of 3 km in the Netherlands (flat area?))
It's well-known that the effective range of fire doesn't depend only on the caliber of the gun, but mainly its length (construction) and the type of ammunition used

It seems to me that this problem was well solved in PG 3D, there probably a unit with 1 hex range was unable to respond with fire to the 2 hexes Tiger attack :idea: 8)

Rudankort
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by Rudankort » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:10 am

El_Condoro wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:21 am
Although I was involved in the early stages of PzC, I have come late to the table with its successor. From what I have seen so far, I will certainly be buying it when it comes out - a very elegant system it seems (from screen shots ahead of live game play demos - I looked for a sample of game play, are there any?) I created a number of scenarios and campaigns for PzC that probably don't work any more but I am happy to see that porting into PzC2 is supported.

My question is about the ranges of tanks (and other unit types) in PzC2: will guns like the 88 be able to fire to 2 hexes, for example? This was a major change from PG to PG2 (along with the so-called overrun bug) but I haven't seen it mentioned in the dev diaries.

For now, thanks for one more thing to look forward to in 2019! Cheers.
Hi El_Condoro, welcome to Panzer Corps 2 forum. It has been a while. :) I've just tried to import some scenarios from Maelstrom campaign into PzC2 editor, and most of them worked but a few did not, so I'll need to check out what happened there. Also, I would not say you are too late to the table, because the beta has not yet started. If you want to join it when it arrives, there is no reason why you cannot.

To answer your questions, there is no public video of gameplay released yet.

As Kresimir has said, tanks are not currently firing across multiple hexes in the stock equipment file. However, I'm thinking about adding it as an option for special types of missions (like urban maps), and it will also be possible for modders to do it.

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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by Rudankort » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:12 am

kondi754 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:29 am
For example, Tiger I attacks the Sherman M4 from a distance of 2 hexes, because has such a range, but Sherman can't answer him with fire because it would be against the realities
Of course, a unit cannot respond beyond its firing range, the game already does this check.

El_Condoro
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by El_Condoro » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:14 am

Rudankort wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:10 am
Hi El_Condoro, welcome to Panzer Corps 2 forum. It has been a while. :) I've just tried to import some scenarios from Maelstrom campaign into PzC2 editor, and most of them worked but a few did not, so I'll need to check out what happened there. Also, I would not say you are too late to the table, because the beta has not yet started. If you want to join it when it arrives, there is no reason why you cannot.

To answer your questions, there is no public video of gameplay released yet.

As Kresimir has said, tanks are not currently firing across multiple hexes in the stock equipment file. However, I'm thinking about adding it as an option for special types of missions (like urban maps), and it will also be possible for modders to do it.
Hi Rudankort! Yes, it has been too long. I would be very happy to be involved in the beta.

I am currently in the process of collating all my old PzC scenario and campaign files from a number of computers that have been used over the past few (6!) years and will try to reacquaint myself with how the editor et al all worked together. I suspect those scenarios that didn't import properly had some problem that I introduced! :) Anyway, happy to see PzC is going from strength to strength.

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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by Rudankort » Tue May 28, 2019 2:19 pm

El_Condoro wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:14 am
Hi Rudankort! Yes, it has been too long. I would be very happy to be involved in the beta.
Just in case, first gameplay videos have been posted here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu1xK4Abq1c&t=3597s

And beta registration has been opened here:
http://slitherine.com/beta/cnda.asp?gid=684

8)

Kolaris
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by Kolaris » Wed May 29, 2019 5:24 pm

Interesting that artillery will be able to return fire now. That was always a frustration I had playing Civil War Generals 2, that if you focus your cannons on an enemy battery, they would somehow find the time amidst the barrage to counter-battery 5+ times and still get to fire during their own turn! Coming under fire somehow increases their damage output for that span of time. I understand that it makes using artillery, which were simple units, more engaging. But I think there are other ways to do that. If you had to choose preemptively what your artillery was going to do: a) fire at a target b) counter-battery enemies in range c) overwatch a hex within range for enemy activity.

JB72
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by JB72 » Wed May 29, 2019 6:04 pm

Tigers should fire 2 hex and enemy with the same range should attack back ! :D

faos333
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by faos333 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:39 am

JB72 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:04 pm
Tigers should fire 2 hex and enemy with the same range should attack back ! :D
If this can be implemented would be great, same with the 88’s and all other tank related equipment, but I do not know if this will bring other problems to game’s mechanics.

PanzerCro
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by PanzerCro » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:26 pm

JB72 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:04 pm
Tigers should fire 2 hex and enemy with the same range should attack back ! :D
IIRC, tigers, king tigers, panthers had two hexes range in Panzer General 2.

AceDuceTrey
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by AceDuceTrey » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:59 pm

Kolaris wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:24 pm
Interesting that artillery will be able to return fire now. That was always a frustration I had playing Civil War Generals 2, that if you focus your cannons on an enemy battery, they would somehow find the time amidst the barrage to counter-battery 5+ times and still get to fire during their own turn! Coming under fire somehow increases their damage output for that span of time. I understand that it makes using artillery, which were simple units, more engaging. But I think there are other ways to do that. If you had to choose preemptively what your artillery was going to do: a) fire at a target b) counter-battery enemies in range c) overwatch a hex within range for enemy activity.
Artillery counter-counter battery is one of the (totally unrealistic) faults in Steams "Panzer Strategy". In REAL counter battery attacks (artillery on artillery) the firing unit always displaces to a new position after firing (normally 4 volleys/about 5 minutes duration). Defending artillery, if they did not spot the firing unit, must be given the "grid coordinates" of the enemy to attack and even if the position was already known, the typical time delay to engage a new (unplanned) target was 20 minutes. But this discussion brings up a need to further define ranged/ranging fire. I believe there are 3 types: 2 hexes are more "indirect" fire on an area unobserved by firing crews, with HE (or HC if hard target); 2 hex ranged point fire with target observed by firing crews, using HE or HC, unless weapon is "hyper" velocity AT gun firing on a hard target using KE armor piercing (AP). It should be noted that many guns (all 75mm or larger) could fire "2 hexes" using HE/HC. Armored self-propelled artillery (ala StuIGs, StuG/Hs, (I)SUs, etc.) specialized in this because they need not register their firing positions for "indirect" fire. Three hexes or more fire would always be "indirect".

AceDuceTrey
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Re: Tank attack range?

Post by AceDuceTrey » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:33 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:29 am
It would only make sense if the attacked unit didn't respond with fire.
For example, Tiger I attacks the Sherman M4 from a distance of 2 hexes, because has such a range, but Sherman can't answer him with fire because it would be against the realities
On the other hand, it shouldn't only connect to 88mm guns and bigger, after all Firefly's 17pdr at gun had 76.2mm and destroyed Tigers with 1850m (the same range like Tiger's, but I read somewhere that there was a case when Firefly destroyed the German Pz IVJ from a distance of 3 km in the Netherlands (flat area?))
It's well-known that the effective range of fire doesn't depend only on the caliber of the gun, but mainly its length (construction) and the type of ammunition used

It seems to me that this problem was well solved in PG 3D, there probably a unit with 1 hex range was unable to respond with fire to the 2 hexes Tiger attack :idea: 8)
Actually, inexperienced/green M4 crews could probably have returned fire a 2 hexes with (much less accurate) Hollow Charge rounds rather than "run like hell" for cover. Also, the German 75L70 could reach that range. :idea:

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