What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

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pewp3w
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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by pewp3w » Sat May 02, 2020 2:46 pm

panzeh wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:41 pm
pewp3w wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:46 pm
TangSooDo wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 10:40 am
I'm old and have a bit of trouble with the angled 3D view. I know lots of people like it. It's just that a top down 2D view is much easier for me. I have thought of a compromise -- in the PzC2 2D view use NATO icons. It would be easier for me to deal with and I would hope not be objectionable to players.
I don't actually think many people like the 3D view, or at least not here in the forum. Without having asked anyone, I would think that most would probably prefer 2D/ PC1 style
The PC1 style is an absolute mess trying to make units out on the map because they blend in with the terrain- they're really not readable in any way.

Hm, that is interesting, I thought units were much more discernible in PC1 than in PC2. I sometimes struggle to differentiate strat bombers and tac bombers

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by rubyjuno » Sat May 02, 2020 4:03 pm

I've been playing Panzer Corps for a few years and love the game, and the graphics are perfect for what is required. With Panzer Corps 2 I can't get past the graphics, it doesn't matter how good the game underneath is, it's the graphics that I have to look at while I'm playing. I bought Order of Battle when it came out and I like the mechanics of the game but stopped playing it as I didn't like the cartoon-type graphics. I realise that some people, especially younger people, probably find the graphics of Panzer Corps (the original) old-fashioned, but they work for me. I understand that the developers wanted a more modern style of graphics for Panzer Corps 2, to attract new and younger players, and I don't blame them. I hope the game does well as Slitherine deserve every success. It sounds like plenty of people like the new graphics, but I can't get on with them. Luckily, I still have plenty of content for the original to go at (massive thanks to all the modders). Maybe I'll go back to Panzer Corps 2 sometime in the future but not anytime soon.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Retributarr » Sat May 02, 2020 4:19 pm

rubyjuno wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:03 pm
I've been playing Panzer Corps for a few years and love the game, and the graphics are perfect for what is required. With Panzer Corps 2 I can't get past the graphics, it doesn't matter how good the game underneath is, it's the graphics that I have to look at while I'm playing.
"The Squeaky. Wheel Gets The Grease"... so... you yourself and your cohorts... should keep persisting in your effort to get some action on this position... then at some point when and if the developers can manage it or make room for it, they just may be able to follow through to make for all of you "Clamourers" ... what you are requesting!.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Kerensky » Sat May 02, 2020 4:30 pm

pewp3w wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:46 pm

Hm, that is interesting, I thought units were much more discernible in PC1 than in PC2. I sometimes struggle to differentiate strat bombers and tac bombers
They aren't, I checked. Aircraft in PzC were just as bad if not worse to visually identify in PzC than Pzc2.
https://i.imgur.com/Xqs8xW5.jpg

The only way this is more discernible is maybe because people have been looking at them for the past 10 years, so there is a familiarity about it. But objectively it is just terrible, especially for anyone not super knowledgeable about WW2 airframes.

Because most WW2 airframes are so similar, PzC2 also suffers from this, it's true. It doesn't help the default skin of both the Ju87 and Bf109 both have the same yellow engine. That's where the confusion mostly comes from honestly. I don't care how historic that is, painting your main fighter to be visually identical to your main tactical bomber is a mistake.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2082044594

But unlike the original game, you can repaint your units through the camo tab. This is the best means to make aircraft visually distinctive, especially if you are struggling, far beyond anything the original game could hope to do beyond using a full on mod to replace the entire unit appearance.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2082044621
Last edited by Kerensky on Sat May 02, 2020 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

elven
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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by elven » Sat May 02, 2020 4:34 pm

Using camo options really helps. I just make fighters black/red, tac bombers black/blue, and strat bombers tan/blue. It is easy to find and identify them then. Still looking at the AI planes can take a bit to identify them correctly unless I hover over them.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by adiekmann » Sat May 02, 2020 5:51 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:30 pm
pewp3w wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:46 pm

Hm, that is interesting, I thought units were much more discernible in PC1 than in PC2. I sometimes struggle to differentiate strat bombers and tac bombers
They aren't, I checked. Aircraft in PzC were just as bad if not worse to visually identify in PzC than Pzc2.
https://i.imgur.com/Xqs8xW5.jpg

The only way this is more discernible is maybe because people have been looking at them for the past 10 years, so there is a familiarity about it. But objectively it is just terrible, especially for anyone not super knowledgeable about WW2 airframes.

Because most WW2 airframes are so similar, PzC2 also suffers from this, it's true. It doesn't help the default skin of both the Ju87 and Bf109 both have the same yellow engine. That's where the confusion mostly comes from honestly. I don't care how historic that is, painting your main fighter to be visually identical to your main tactical bomber is a mistake.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2082044594

But unlike the original game, you can repaint your units through the camo tab. This is the best means to make aircraft visually distinctive, especially if you are struggling, far beyond anything the original game could hope to do beyond using a full on mod to replace the entire unit appearance.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2082044621
True, I use the camo to differentiate between units of even the same class more so than just what looks nice. Overall, I was somewhat disappointed with the selection and look of the camo skins. Someone made a skins mod in PC1 that was simply outstanding. However, it was a pain in the butt to change.

My biggest problem isn't with distinguishing between aircraft, but selecting the ground unit/aircraft in shared tiles. Even when aware of it, it still often takes me multiple clicks (and an undo move) before I properly select the correct unit that I want. In PC1 I do like how the aircraft shrink in size when ground units are selected (or use the TAB key to toggle), and are larger to let you know that it's the air units that are active in that tile rather than having to be so precise in your clicking.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by john80 » Sat May 02, 2020 6:45 pm

I played panzer general through the 90's and beyond. PC1 a lot from the day it launched to these last few years 1 grand campaign a year.
PC 2, I've been playing since launch and I like it. My Pros and Cons;

Pros;
love the new way planes work,
Like that units resupply automatically at the start of the turn.
Like the choiches I have to make because of the new slot-system, I keep older units and have to really think what I need in the current scenario.
The fact you can have different camo on individual units, also helps with seeing what's what.
The new mechanics (encirclement, splitting units)
The traits you can pick at the start of the Campaign.
New hero-system.
Like that AT now supports against hard attack
Big artillery pieces having the counter battery ability
Artillery and AA having 'supressing fire' -so not that many kills but mostly supression-
Again having the ability to enter cheat-codes. I know.. I know... but it just gives players choice! Play the game the way you want to! I for one... can not STAND mud (I'm calling you out, Vyazma!!!!)


Cons;
Visuals take a lot of getting used to. I have to set the hexes so they show, otherwise I place units wrong. This could just be down to having been playing 2D since 1994.
I often feel I don't have enough units, even while being economic with my slots. I feel I HAVE tot take the 'AUXILARY FORCES' trait just to have some recon planes/cheap fighters/AA.
The campaign feels a bit 'smal' BUT I think that's because I have only played the grand campaign these last 6 years, not the original PC1 campaign.
I would like all artillery units to have both the soft and hard support ( I only use the 15 cm because of this)
The 'captured equipment' needs work!
Regular and heavy infantry -not engineers/pioneers- seem a bit useless because of the power of entrenchment and the fact it NEVER goes below the base entrenchment of a hex, forcing me to use pioneers almost exclusively

I'm sure I left a few things out, but these things came to mind.

So.... to make a long story even longer; I like that I can customize my campaign more than in PC1 and a lot of the new mechanics and traits. Some changes take some getting used to or aren't ideal but overall, very good successor! I hope to see a grand campaign at some point, and also a lot of other dlc. It's a niche genre but there are surely enough people in the community to make it worthwhile to have all kinds of content (Allied, Soviet, maybe a pacific camp?).

Retributarr
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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Retributarr » Sat May 02, 2020 6:50 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:51 pm
Kerensky wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:30 pm
pewp3w wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:46 pm

Hm, that is interesting, I thought units were much more discernible in PC1 than in PC2. I sometimes struggle to differentiate strat bombers and tac bombers
My biggest problem isn't with distinguishing between aircraft, but selecting the ground unit/aircraft in shared tiles. Even when aware of it, it still often takes me multiple clicks (and an undo move) before I properly select the correct unit that I want. In PC1 I do like how the aircraft shrink in size when ground units are selected (or use the TAB key to toggle), and are larger to let you know that it's the air units that are active in that tile rather than having to be so precise in your clicking.
"selecting the ground unit/aircraft in shared tiles. Even when aware of it, it still often takes me multiple clicks (and an undo move) before I properly select the correct unit that I want":
Agreed!... this is a frequent nuisance issue!.

"In PC1 I do like how the aircraft shrink in size when ground units are selected and are larger to let you know that it's the air units that are active in that tile":
(For assured guaranteed accessibility)

econ21
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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by econ21 » Sun May 03, 2020 10:07 am

rubyjuno wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:03 pm
With Panzer Corps 2 I can't get past the graphics,
Apologies for repeating what I posted a page back, but have you checked this thread about sharpening up the graphics:

viewtopic.php?f=464&t=97713

I am not sure what you don't like about the graphics - for me, it was a combination of things seeming blurry and there being a lot of lag scrolling the map. Tweaking things made both problems less severe. Oh, and making the units bigger helps a lot - say 66%.

pewp3w
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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by pewp3w » Sun May 03, 2020 5:39 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:30 pm
pewp3w wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:46 pm

Hm, that is interesting, I thought units were much more discernible in PC1 than in PC2. I sometimes struggle to differentiate strat bombers and tac bombers
They aren't, I checked. Aircraft in PzC were just as bad if not worse to visually identify in PzC than Pzc2.
https://i.imgur.com/Xqs8xW5.jpg

The only way this is more discernible is maybe because people have been looking at them for the past 10 years, so there is a familiarity about it. But objectively it is just terrible, especially for anyone not super knowledgeable about WW2 airframes.

Because most WW2 airframes are so similar, PzC2 also suffers from this, it's true. It doesn't help the default skin of both the Ju87 and Bf109 both have the same yellow engine. That's where the confusion mostly comes from honestly. I don't care how historic that is, painting your main fighter to be visually identical to your main tactical bomber is a mistake.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2082044594

But unlike the original game, you can repaint your units through the camo tab. This is the best means to make aircraft visually distinctive, especially if you are struggling, far beyond anything the original game could hope to do beyond using a full on mod to replace the entire unit appearance.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2082044621
I do repaint my units with camo to differentiate them.

I still disagree. It might be that the units weren't easier to differentiate in PC1 by itself, but there is much less else going on allowing for easier differentiation. People can disagree, I still struggle.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Sun May 03, 2020 6:39 pm

I've never played PzC1 so I have no reference points - however, with a little bit of zoom the unit graphics are quite distinct (for me) apart from the infantry variants. Being able to paint units has been a huge help though, so I can easily differentiate my individual divisions etc.

Big shout to the guy / girl behind the Finland winter aircraft camo (my Stukas), the German winter aircraft camo (my 110s) and the DB ambush armour camo (my strongest Pz division).

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by gbaby » Mon May 04, 2020 1:09 am

Played many hundreds of hours on PC1, loved the look of everything, loved the mods, loved how fast and quick it played.

PC2 is a pretty damn good game in its own right. I don't get all this talk about how folks feel the 3D was a mistake and how they wish it stayed 2D, while making it sound like the majority feel this way. Many stated such even before release. No, I do not think 2D would have been better. I was concerned, but they pulled it off and the 3D presentation does not ruin the PC play style. The models have been done very professionally and it looks great. No problem here with unit identification.

I'm still playing PC1, but PC2 with its new rules plays better, feels better unit balanced, with the 3D presentation looking awesome. I am very happy with it, and at my age, that is hard to accomplish. Two thumbs up.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by ErissN6 » Mon May 04, 2020 2:55 am

gbaby wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 1:09 am
I don't get all this talk about how folks feel the 3D was a mistake and how they wish it stayed 2D.
3D is not bad 'per se'. What is bad is that 2D had more and easier seen informations. With 3D, devs have to let area so we see their beautifull figures, area which is lost for information. Too, as 3D is too "well done", it's hidding in terrain and we have to compensate by removing the well done camo. A game should not be harmed by its art, gameplay should be prioritized, then art has to melt in gameplay. So, if nothing is done to have better seen gameplay in 3D, I prefer coming back to 2D.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by gbaby » Mon May 04, 2020 5:34 am

ErissN6 wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 2:55 am
3D is not bad 'per se'. What is bad is that 2D had more and easier seen informations. With 3D, devs have to let area so we see their beautifull figures, area which is lost for information. Too, as 3D is too "well done", it's hidding in terrain and we have to compensate by removing the well done camo. A game should not be harmed by its art, gameplay should be prioritized, then art has to melt in gameplay. So, if nothing is done to have better seen gameplay in 3D, I prefer coming back to 2D.
And yet, for me, it is totally playable and enjoyable with the 3D representation. I don't think it makes anything harder as per presentation of information. Maybe a better monitor is needed. Everything looks detailed and easy to read, terrain wise, info on units, etc. The camo is most excellent as is and does not need to be removed to make things easier to identify. I love playing with the camo and add further distinction between units, especially air units. The zoom feature makes adjustment quick and easy to assist with information, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I love the 2D PC1 look and especially what was done with the German DMP mods. I thought the PACIFIC was really well done and enjoyed the 2D immensely, and will continue to do so in the future. BUT, PC2 3D is not the "bummer" as some who promote 2D. Maybe in the future PC2 will provide option to present in 2D. I wouldn't use it, I like the new presentation as it is and applaud the move to 3D. I was worried about it, due to my love of PC1 and it's 2D representation, but I'm very happy with what was done with PC2. The play is even better than I hoped for which is what counts the most. The 3D graphics does not distract, it heightens the enjoyment, at least for me, and maybe some others. I'm glad I have PC1 with 2D with PC2 with 3D. Perfect for me. Couldn't be happier.

Face it, this 3D move is a smart move. It might pull others into this "beer & pretzel" war game style of game. Easy to play but deep enough to keep us hooked. Great upgrades, great 3D models with wonderful animation, wonderfully implemented UI (I love it anyway), and I can't wait for the DLCs and other user mods/campaigns. I hope they do very well with this title, it deserves it.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by panzeh » Mon May 04, 2020 10:09 am

ErissN6 wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 2:55 am
gbaby wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 1:09 am
I don't get all this talk about how folks feel the 3D was a mistake and how they wish it stayed 2D.
3D is not bad 'per se'. What is bad is that 2D had more and easier seen informations. With 3D, devs have to let area so we see their beautifull figures, area which is lost for information. Too, as 3D is too "well done", it's hidding in terrain and we have to compensate by removing the well done camo. A game should not be harmed by its art, gameplay should be prioritized, then art has to melt in gameplay. So, if nothing is done to have better seen gameplay in 3D, I prefer coming back to 2D.
To me, the figures in PC1 are hiding in the terrain very well, as they have almost no pop from it. The representation of air units is even worse. With PC2's interface, i can very easily see planes at a glance at any zoom level, and PC2 has actual free zooming.

I do agree that I like utilitarian graphics, but PC1's graphics was far, far from utilitarian- it was all about look at these nice figures rather than informing of anything.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by ErissN6 » Tue May 05, 2020 2:48 am

panzeh wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 10:09 am
I do agree that I like utilitarian graphics, but PC1's graphics was far, far from utilitarian- it was all about look at these nice figures rather than informing of anything.
That's right, but I feel it worse with 3D here.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by boredatwork » Fri May 08, 2020 12:43 am

Kerensky wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:30 pm
They aren't, I checked. Aircraft in PzC were just as bad if not worse to visually identify in PzC than Pzc2.
https://i.imgur.com/Xqs8xW5.jpg

The only way this is more discernible is maybe because people have been looking at them for the past 10 years, so there is a familiarity about it. But objectively it is just terrible, especially for anyone not super knowledgeable about WW2 airframes.
Yea... No. I had no problem discerning the difference between PzC aircraft from Beta onward. I'm sure if you pulled a random sample of people off the street and surveyed them, they could probably ***find*** and count the number of aircraft on screen, as well as match different types (ie they might not have a clue about WW2 aircraft but could tell I had 5 of this type, 2 of this type, and 1 each of these types) From a *functional* point of view PzC's graphics were far better at conveying information.



- In PzC the units are at a fixed orientation and scale relative to the camera - you only have to memorize a single the profile where as in PzC2 you have a multitude of potential angles you can view any given aircraft

- In PzC Switching modes brought to prominence the layer you wanted to focus on. In PzC2 both air and ground units in the same hex are equally competing for attention.

- In PzC the strength plates on the the units were more consistent in PzC: ground or air they were only ever along the bottom edge of the hex. In PzC two ground unit plates are a descent distance away from the unit, air unit plates OTOH are crowded up against the aircraft, often overlapping it and covering up the ground unit below (look at my Bf109 above my recon unit for example)

- in addition in PzC2 the interface randomly redesigning itself, the animated objective flags, the stationary animations, the "Fog of War" and "encirclement" boarders, and busier strength plates mean there's alot more on screen competing for a p,layer's attention and reducing the contrast between units

- In PzC air units were *IN* the hex they were located in compared to PzC2 where the aircraft are outside and above (relative to the Y axis of the screen) the hex they're "occupying".


It's the same for that matter for switchable units - in PzC the barrel was either up for one mode, or down for the other. In PzC2 because it "aims" the barrel at the target you can no longer tell if an 88mm gun is in AT mode or AA mode and simply aiming at a low target.
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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by boredatwork » Fri May 08, 2020 12:45 am

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by RandomAttack » Fri May 08, 2020 2:40 pm

Not sure there is a fix, but my single biggest annoyance in PzC2 is like the screenshot above: I have an incredibly hard time picking out aircraft at times. Obviously the DEGREE of difficulty varies based on terrain, etc. There are some battles where I spend more time per turn squinting at the screen trying to find them than I do moving all my ground units. Yes, I can use the "tab" key to see only aircraft, but I'm having a hard time getting used to that view where everything else is in "white out". And there *is* a problem differentiating between aircraft at a glance-- which I think is due to the angle at which they are viewed. The models themselves are pretty. But look at Poland North, you can immediately have a hard time picking out the Stuka from the Me-109 at a glance. I have to apply a different camo to all tac bombers to make it easier. Not that big a deal but the point remains.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Demetrios_of_Messene » Sat May 09, 2020 10:24 am

As someone who skipped PzC and only tried it out before deciding to purchase PzC2, I really do not understand the fuss about the clarity of units. For me things are definitely looking worse in PzC.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that the air units in PzC2 should be made more distinguishable. But the graphics are a huge improvement over the first game (no I am not a fan of 3D and PG3D was a failure due to the 3D, but today it works fine in PzC2).

In the beginning of playing PzC2, I used to press key 2 and double click on the image of whatever air unit I wanted to select. Now, I do not use the units panel. I have the units at max scale and can select the proper air unit with some effort, that indeed could have been avoided by better design, but it does not feel frustrating. The game offers so many options to customize the way you play it that you probably can find a way to get around any suboptimal design issue. Just my opinion.

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