Sorry about this, but....

[Vonkluge1940]

So, I’m about to become very unpopular……
I have been playing both PC games (mostly historical) and miniature wargames longer than most here have been alive, and know my history pretty well. I have read and studied WWII for over 40 years and looked forward to the release of Panzer Corps 2 with much anticipation. I played this type of game since way back when we were still on mono screens!
I have to say I am extremely disappointed in the game on many levels. Granted I have less than a dozen games under my belt but already I think it was cash tossed away unless by some miracle a large patch fixes it.
The game is pretty, the interface ok, the sounds are cheap at times and in this day and age there is no excuse for that! The biggest problem is that it appears to have been designed by people who understand game design and play but have little real historical knowledge of the equipment, terrain, and tactics, of a WWII battlefield.
For example over the last two days I played random battles mode 1944 (the lieutenant leval? Easy) I’m on the attack, and I received Panzer IIIs as my main armor with a Marder as well, 1944? Panzer IIIs by that time are gone, or relegated to security anti partisan work. In one of the games I finally got a Panther that was charged by Soviet Cavalry (str 15!) did 6-7 points of damage to the armor and caused it to retreat! LOL! Russian cavalry charging armored vehicles with small arms in the open and winning in 1944! Please guys are you getting your history out of a comic book or off reddit?

Another time I placed a 1943 Panzer grenadier (str12) unit on a road just outside a city I held with another regular Wehrmacht infantry unit to it side. A Russian unit (str15) that was 3 hexes away in another city moves up and does 6 damage to it, I did 2 back on the Russian, the PnzrGrn’s retreat… are you kidding?
I know I have not given the game much play but these types of silly results have happened way to often to make any further commitment to the game fun or worth my time at this point. With out some type of EASY in game editor to be able to modify the units in the scenarios I think I’m done…. already!

[ragingrondo]

So, I’m about to become very unpopular……
I have been playing both PC games (mostly historical) and miniature wargames longer than most here have been alive, and know my history pretty well. I have read and studied WWII for over 40 years and looked forward to the release of Panzer Corps 2 with much anticipation. I played this type of game since way back when we were still on mono screens!
I have to say I am extremely disappointed in the game on many levels. Granted I have less than a dozen games under my belt but already I think it was cash tossed away unless by some miracle a large patch fixes it.
The game is pretty, the interface ok, the sounds are cheap at times and in this day and age there is no excuse for that! The biggest problem is that it appears to have been designed by people who understand game design and play but have little real historical knowledge of the equipment, terrain, and tactics, of a WWII battlefield.
For example over the last two days I played random battles mode 1944 (the lieutenant leval? Easy) I’m on the attack, and I received Panzer IIIs as my main armor with a Marder as well, 1944? Panzer IIIs by that time are gone, or relegated to security anti partisan work. In one of the games I finally got a Panther that was charged by Soviet Cavalry (str 15!) did 6-7 points of damage to the armor and caused it to retreat! LOL! Russian cavalry charging armored vehicles with small arms in the open and winning in 1944! Please guys are you getting your history out of a comic book or off reddit?

Another time I placed a 1943 Panzer grenadier (str12) unit on a road just outside a city I held with another regular Wehrmacht infantry unit to it side. A Russian unit (str15) that was 3 hexes away in another city moves up and does 6 damage to it, I did 2 back on the Russian, the PnzrGrn’s retreat… are you kidding?
I know I have not given the game much play but these types of silly results have happened way to often to make any further commitment to the game fun or worth my time at this point. With out some type of EASY in game editor to be able to modify the units in the scenarios I think I’m done…. already!

The soviet cavalry doing that much damage should only occur if you placed your panther in a close terrain hex. That way instead of attacking your ground defense, the cavalry was matched up against your close defense, which is much much much lower than the ground defense. Units will retreat when they take more damage than the amount of currently suppressed strength. So if you have a unit with 10 strength, but 7 of that is suppressed then all an attacking unit will need to do is one point of damage and 2 points of suppression to force a retreat. It sounds like your Panzer Grenadier was suppressed prior to being attacked.

Further more, the initiative of the units matter. If a unit has more initiative, it will shoot more of its shots first. So if the Russian unit shot fist and did more damage, then it sounds like your 12 strength unit took it's damage first and shot back not as a 12 strength unit but as a 6th strength unit. That's why Artillery and other support weapons are key.

Adittionally, each point of strength can be thought of a shot.

[Demetrios_of_Messene]

ragingrondo already covered most important items I wanted to comment. Keep in mind that hills are considered close terrain by game rules.

For such an experienced gamer, it appears that you missed to read the manual or did not play Panzer Corps 1 or the old Panzer General Games. This is all fine, but if you have done either you should not be surprised by the battle results.

Additionally, you are not providing enough description of what happened (were you playing with dice rolls at 100% or 0%, terrain, suppression, supply, encirclement, experience level of units).

I would advise that you read the manual or ask questions in this forum to find out more details. By the way, if you want more customizable armies, you may want to try out one of the campaigns.

Also as the overall experienced and mature person you portray yourself, I would expect that you ask/ search and find out what happened first based on objective facts and draw your firm conclusions later (which can be as negative and harsh as you decide of course, there is definitely room for criticism on several aspects of the game).

[Horseman]

First off - you have not been playing PC games longer than I've been alive, no one has. There is an outside change you were playing some sort of video game before I was born but I doubt it. And I'm far from the oldest person here!

Secondly - It doesn't really matter how long you have been playing, it doesn't automatically make you right. There are people far younger than me with a far better knowledge of history.

As a previous poster has already mentioned. If your Panther took that sort of damage from a Russian Cav unit you were in close terrain. Cav (infantry in general) do not have enough HA to damage a Panther in the open. That is not a place most tanks want to be in. Of course a person who knows all about history knows all about the effects of terrain on combat.

If a 12 str Grenadier retreated after taking 6 loses that means it already had at least 3 suppression on it before the attack....so an under strength infantry unit that is already partially suppressed gets forced to retreat by a full strength infantry unit. What exactly is odd here?

Please make sure you're aware of basic game mechanics before you start spouting off about things not being right/not historical. Neither of these instances are really unhistorical.

As to the PzIII in 1944 - I'd agree that I'd rather not see that in a random game, I suspect it pulls from the equipment file and PzIIIs were technically still in service in 1944. I believe the random scenarios currently use 1st of Jan for the year selected.

[MickMannock]

Exactly also my opinion - Panzer Corps 2 is mostly boring - fast produced - without any historical details...
Its more for kids - possibly also for illiterate adults - but never for intelligent players of the old school...

Well, this is a beer and pretzel type of strategy game. So the game mechanics are somewhat on the simpler side. That being said, there's nothing wrong with that. There are different types of games for different kind of moods. I enjoy both the complicated stuff and the simpler stuff and it certainly has nothing to do with intelligence.

[janscas]

In one of the games I finally got a Panther that was charged by Soviet Cavalry (str 15!) did 6-7 points of damage to the armor and caused it to retreat! LOL! Russian cavalry charging armored vehicles with small arms in the open and winning in 1944! Please guys are you getting your history out of a comic book or off reddit?

This is extremely rare and I would say even impossible in clear terrain even with bad weather.
You should review the game rules.

[gokkel]

As others stated, unless there was a weird bug going on, it is much more likely that your Panther was actually in close terrain when attacked by the enemy cavalry. It is impossible for infantry to penetrate a Panther's armor in the open. In close terrain that result is very possible though.

The grenadier result suggests that there might have been suppression going on, and otherwise without some screenshots or anything it is hard to tell what was happening. Units can have different experience levels as well, and the difficulty level impacts things too (on higher difficulties enemy units get an accuracy buff). Unless you deactivated it, RNG can have a bit of impact as well. That result doesn't seem impossible all in all.

[Rood]

It's a game, not a simulation.
I also frown when my Panzer IIIJ in open ground gets attacked by a Soviet Guard and each loses 2 points. But the Guards units have a really high HA and GD so numerically it's right, but my expectations are quite different.

Maybe try out Steel Division, a more accurate game maybe (though it's real time - with pause options).
And there's also plenty of complaints about the "accuracy" and "realism" of that game.

[jeffoot77]

"without any historical details"

--> +1 : even the names of the heroes are not reals !! why so little immersion?

[Horseman]

"without any historical details"

--> +1 : even the names of the heroes are not reals !! why so little immersion?

You do know there was literally millions of men in the German army? You know all their names? I challenge you to prove none of the heroes names were in fact real names!

In PC1 special heroes (actual famous names from WW2) were introduced in DLC - I expect the same here.

[ManniW]

BTW - where is my post here ? Why they erase them ?

Edit: A guy with the name Paulus wrote me - I am a troll...
Its possible to write critic points here ?

[Horseman]

BTW - where is my post here ? Why they erase them ?

Edit: A guy with the name Paulus wrote me - I am a troll...
Its possible to write critic points here ?

It wasn't a critic, it was just an insult. Learn the difference.

[JosephM]

Hello Guys,

ManniW, sorry, but we have no issue at all with constructive criticism, and indeed that is useful for helping to improve the games. But your comment did not offer this. It was directly insulting other users while not justifying your reasoning of why with details. Such a comment is trolling, plain and simple, hence why it was removed and you were given a warning, and further comments like that will invoke further action. Then note that VPaulus is not "A guy", but instead a staff member, and indeed a respected member of the PC1 and OoB community as well as a member of staff who is often in the forums. He took that action for a reason and we stand by his decision. Vonkluge1940 created a reasoned post giving specific examples of why he feels the way he does, and other users have replied to explain why this happened. We like such posts, as it increases community engagement and helps forge a closer community who understand the reasoning of the game rules better. Your comment was around 35 words which did not contribute to the discussion and was just flaming/trolling. I hope this clarifies the situation.

I will also add to what the other users here say, that ultimately this is a game and there must therefore be certain elements which are abstracted for balance reasons and to improve gameplay. Panzer Corps is one of the more game-like WW2 games we have, where there is more abstraction. Whereas a game like WitE is far more of a simluation and has less abstraction (or as MickMannock said and other users describe this as a "beer and pretzels game", i.e. PC2 is meant to be a medium level game, whereas WitE, DC Barbarossa etc more simulation games with extremely complex mechanics). But even in a game like that there has to be elements of abstraction to help the game be more fun and playable.

The general tone of this thread is not very welcoming, so please can all users take note: explaining in a reasoned way the other side of the argument is OK, but insulting other users in any way is not. We will leave the post open, but please do keep this civil, as ultimately we are all here to enjoy the games and have fun and engage with other users who share the hobby.

[Duedman]

So, I’m about to become very unpopular……
I have been playing both PC games (mostly historical) and miniature wargames longer than most here have been alive, and know my history pretty well. I have read and studied WWII for over 40 years and looked forward to the release of Panzer Corps 2 with much anticipation. I played this type of game since way back when we were still on mono screens!
I have to say I am extremely disappointed in the game on many levels. Granted I have less than a dozen games under my belt but already I think it was cash tossed away unless by some miracle a large patch fixes it.
The game is pretty, the interface ok, the sounds are cheap at times and in this day and age there is no excuse for that! The biggest problem is that it appears to have been designed by people who understand game design and play but have little real historical knowledge of the equipment, terrain, and tactics, of a WWII battlefield.
For example over the last two days I played random battles mode 1944 (the lieutenant leval? Easy) I’m on the attack, and I received Panzer IIIs as my main armor with a Marder as well, 1944? Panzer IIIs by that time are gone, or relegated to security anti partisan work. In one of the games I finally got a Panther that was charged by Soviet Cavalry (str 15!) did 6-7 points of damage to the armor and caused it to retreat! LOL! Russian cavalry charging armored vehicles with small arms in the open and winning in 1944! Please guys are you getting your history out of a comic book or off reddit?

Another time I placed a 1943 Panzer grenadier (str12) unit on a road just outside a city I held with another regular Wehrmacht infantry unit to it side. A Russian unit (str15) that was 3 hexes away in another city moves up and does 6 damage to it, I did 2 back on the Russian, the PnzrGrn’s retreat… are you kidding?
I know I have not given the game much play but these types of silly results have happened way to often to make any further commitment to the game fun or worth my time at this point. With out some type of EASY in game editor to be able to modify the units in the scenarios I think I’m done…. already!

I've got 2 points on this.
Firstly, I played Panzer General and manymany similar games to bits. And I was somehow not hyped about PC2 at all. I was more like "yawn, another one...."
The only things that got me into trying it was the new encirclement mechanics and to a lesser extent, overrun.
After this, all the other games feel like World War 1 to me. Just static.
Now you actually are in a risk/reward situation from huge flanking maneuvers other than just beeing "behind" the enemy (and exposed yourself).
The mechanics / AI may not be perfect yet but to me they are incredibly refreshing.
I cannot praise this enough.

And secondly, I do not quite get what you want with historical accuracy. In 1944 the Axis were stripped of any operational initiative. Air supremacy long lost. Logistics (that were never great to begin with) crippled. Everyone was just trying to delay the inevitable. Even the biggest things they tried (Bagration and Battle of the Bulge) were totally hopeless. Not a tiny chance to win anything useful out of those.
Now I ask - do you really want to play that?

[Vonkluge1940]

First off - you have not been playing PC games longer than I've been alive, no one has. There is an outside change you were playing some sort of video game before I was born but I doubt it. And I'm far from the oldest person here!

Secondly - It doesn't really matter how long you have been playing, it doesn't automatically make you right. There are people far younger than me with a far better knowledge of history.

As a previous poster has already mentioned. If your Panther took that sort of damage from a Russian Cav unit you were in close terrain. Cav (infantry in general) do not have enough HA to damage a Panther in the open. That is not a place most tanks want to be in. Of course a person who knows all about history knows all about the effects of terrain on combat.

If a 12 str Grenadier retreated after taking 6 loses that means it already had at least 3 suppression on it before the attack....so an under strength infantry unit that is already partially suppressed gets forced to retreat by a full strength infantry unit. What exactly is odd here?

Please make sure you're aware of basic game mechanics before you start spouting off about things not being right/not historical. Neither of these instances are really unhistorical.

As to the PzIII in 1944 - I'd agree that I'd rather not see that in a random game, I suspect it pulls from the equipment file and PzIIIs were technically still in service in 1944. I believe the random scenarios currently use 1st of Jan for the year selected.

Well Horseman I said "longer than most" not ALL and I would still bet that's true. And if you really read what I've said you will understand the meaning and purpose of these types of broad statements. I'm aware of basic game mechanics, they are used to simulate and replicate real life conditions and results in a gaming situation, most are pretty simple stacking of odds and modifiers with some random or RNG thrown in to lessen predictability. If I did not like the game I would not have bothered to post here at all, I want the discussion. I want to like the game, but without feedback and criticism nothing would ever be fixed, improved, or developed further. So far the comments here have given me a bit of insight on a few of what I felt were very odd results or moves in the game, I do believe that one of the results was indeed caused by my armor being in a city area, but still attacked by Cavalry in a city? Cavalry is good in a city? Perhaps there are other mitigating factors I do not yet understand about the game. Now the other time the Armor was in the open on a road. I also realize my questions are not specific enough to allow full explanation of what happened mechanics wise, but most respondents attempts to explain were helpful.
There are still things that are very strange in the AI. Like last night seeing several times enemy units move out of strong defensive positions or victory hexes to attack a low health unit and then get destroyed by my units...in fact that became a tactic for me, lure them out with a useless bridging unit and clobber them.
My harsh tone was really from frustration with what I hoped the game was verses what it in fact appears to be, maybe more play will change my view (one game last night was better BUT still many odd things) time will tell. Some here have said this is a "beer and pretzels" game, ok I understand that BUT its not marketed that way in my opinion and once Ive spent my money on it I have a right to be disappointed in what I receive.
Can you open pre-built scenarios from the game in the editor?
Thanks for all the reply's!

VonKluge

[Vonkluge1940]

I've got 2 points on this.
Firstly, I played Panzer General and manymany similar games to bits. And I was somehow not hyped about PC2 at all. I was more like "yawn, another one...."
The only things that got me into trying it was the new encirclement mechanics and to a lesser extent, overrun.
After this, all the other games feel like World War 1 to me. Just static.
Now you actually are in a risk/reward situation from huge flanking maneuvers other than just beeing "behind" the enemy (and exposed yourself).
The mechanics / AI may not be perfect yet but to me they are incredibly refreshing.
I cannot praise this enough.

And secondly, I do not quite get what you want with historical accuracy. In 1944 the Axis were stripped of any operational initiative. Air supremacy long lost. Logistics (that were never great to begin with) crippled. Everyone was just trying to delay the inevitable. Even the biggest things they tried (Bagration and Battle of the Bulge) were totally hopeless. Not a tiny chance to win anything useful out of those.
Now I ask - do you really want to play that?

Ok good bits on the first post I agree!

You missed the point on the second, the historical I was talking about was the units themselves, 3-4 units of Russian Cavalry attacking armor in 1944? maybe in 1940-41 but not that late in the war and I guess a disappointment in the way the units behave, I may just not understand the the game mechanics/AI limits yet, perhaps what I am looking for is not in this game. when you say "In 1944 the Axis were stripped of any operational initiative" that really depends on the level of operations. Yes it's a game and and no one wants to play with a forgone conclusion...IE defeat!

[nexusno2000]

So, I’m about to become very unpopular……
I have been playing both PC games (mostly historical) and miniature wargames longer than most here have been alive, and know my history pretty well. I have read and studied WWII for over 40 years and looked forward to the release of Panzer Corps 2 with much anticipation. I played this type of game since way back when we were still on mono screens!
I have to say I am extremely disappointed in the game on many levels. Granted I have less than a dozen games under my belt but already I think it was cash tossed away unless by some miracle a large patch fixes it.
The game is pretty, the interface ok, the sounds are cheap at times and in this day and age there is no excuse for that! The biggest problem is that it appears to have been designed by people who understand game design and play but have little real historical knowledge of the equipment, terrain, and tactics, of a WWII battlefield.
For example over the last two days I played random battles mode 1944 (the lieutenant leval? Easy) I’m on the attack, and I received Panzer IIIs as my main armor with a Marder as well, 1944? Panzer IIIs by that time are gone, or relegated to security anti partisan work. In one of the games I finally got a Panther that was charged by Soviet Cavalry (str 15!) did 6-7 points of damage to the armor and caused it to retreat! LOL! Russian cavalry charging armored vehicles with small arms in the open and winning in 1944! Please guys are you getting your history out of a comic book or off reddit?

Another time I placed a 1943 Panzer grenadier (str12) unit on a road just outside a city I held with another regular Wehrmacht infantry unit to it side. A Russian unit (str15) that was 3 hexes away in another city moves up and does 6 damage to it, I did 2 back on the Russian, the PnzrGrn’s retreat… are you kidding?
I know I have not given the game much play but these types of silly results have happened way to often to make any further commitment to the game fun or worth my time at this point. With out some type of EASY in game editor to be able to modify the units in the scenarios I think I’m done…. already!

I'd like to add that the equipment composition of the random scenarios isn't all that great ATM. For example, PzIIIJ1 and above only expire 1 Jan 45. I suppose this is on the off chance you need to buy replacements for it... when you really should swap it out. This is much less of an issue in the campaign. But random scenarios could certainly need some tweaking in that regard.

The grenadier seems to be at -3 str, and must also have suppression to be forced back. Soviet 15 str inf can with some luck do that much damage to another inf standing around in the open. Nothing mystical about it really. Probably just bad luck.

The cav vs Panther example is definitely close terrain. This is where I think devs have overdone the rock-paper-scissors thing. Inf isn't just good in close terrain and tanks bad, the difference is HUGE. Much too big IMO. But the first time it happens... yeah it gets salty.

[panzeh]

I think the problem with nerfing infantry's advantage in close terrain is that you end up with infantry becoming completely obsolete as armor stats scale up much, much more quickly than infantry does.

And in terms of realism, the cavalry would be much better off in terrain than a lot of other kinds of units- it's probably the worst actual infantry unit for close terrain but i think it's entirely reasonable for it to still beat up on tanks in close terrain.

[Horseman]

First off - you have not been playing PC games longer than I've been alive, no one has. There is an outside change you were playing some sort of video game before I was born but I doubt it. And I'm far from the oldest person here!

Secondly - It doesn't really matter how long you have been playing, it doesn't automatically make you right. There are people far younger than me with a far better knowledge of history.

As a previous poster has already mentioned. If your Panther took that sort of damage from a Russian Cav unit you were in close terrain. Cav (infantry in general) do not have enough HA to damage a Panther in the open. That is not a place most tanks want to be in. Of course a person who knows all about history knows all about the effects of terrain on combat.

If a 12 str Grenadier retreated after taking 6 loses that means it already had at least 3 suppression on it before the attack....so an under strength infantry unit that is already partially suppressed gets forced to retreat by a full strength infantry unit. What exactly is odd here?

Please make sure you're aware of basic game mechanics before you start spouting off about things not being right/not historical. Neither of these instances are really unhistorical.

As to the PzIII in 1944 - I'd agree that I'd rather not see that in a random game, I suspect it pulls from the equipment file and PzIIIs were technically still in service in 1944. I believe the random scenarios currently use 1st of Jan for the year selected.

Well Horseman I said "longer than most" not ALL and I would still bet that's true. And if you really read what I've said you will understand the meaning and purpose of these types of broad statements. I'm aware of basic game mechanics, they are used to simulate and replicate real life conditions and results in a gaming situation, most are pretty simple stacking of odds and modifiers with some random or RNG thrown in to lessen predictability. If I did not like the game I would not have bothered to post here at all, I want the discussion. I want to like the game, but without feedback and criticism nothing would ever be fixed, improved, or developed further. So far the comments here have given me a bit of insight on a few of what I felt were very odd results or moves in the game, I do believe that one of the results was indeed caused by my armor being in a city area, but still attacked by Cavalry in a city? Cavalry is good in a city? Perhaps there are other mitigating factors I do not yet understand about the game. Now the other time the Armor was in the open on a road. I also realize my questions are not specific enough to allow full explanation of what happened mechanics wise, but most respondents attempts to explain were helpful.
There are still things that are very strange in the AI. Like last night seeing several times enemy units move out of strong defensive positions or victory hexes to attack a low health unit and then get destroyed by my units...in fact that became a tactic for me, lure them out with a useless bridging unit and clobber them.
My harsh tone was really from frustration with what I hoped the game was verses what it in fact appears to be, maybe more play will change my view (one game last night was better BUT still many odd things) time will tell. Some here have said this is a "beer and pretzels" game, ok I understand that BUT its not marketed that way in my opinion and once Ive spent my money on it I have a right to be disappointed in what I receive.
Can you open pre-built scenarios from the game in the editor?
Thanks for all the reply's!

VonKluge

My apologies if my original reply was a bit harsh, you seem like a decent fellow so no offence intended.

I'd disagree on the marketing - PC2 as well as PC1 (not to mention their distance ancestor PG) were all marketed as beer and pretzel. On the other hand maybe I'm suffering some bias as I knew that's what i was getting.

Cavalry worked fine in the city. They didn't really fight mounted in WW2 all that much. The horses really were just a form of transport. Think of them more like Dragoons. Even the famous Polish cavalry charge at panzers was in reality a load of made up propaganda.

And yes you can Edit the pre built scenarios just fine - just be sure to save the edited version with a different name if you dont want to overwrite the original. You can even edit the campaign scenarios (but they need to be overwritten to stay in the camapign)

One other thing that might prove useful - if you press L during play it'll bring up the combat log and show you the numbers behind what you see. So next time you see a Panther hit hard by cavalry, you'll be able to see what effects caused that. In the open Cavalry do not have a high enough HA to harm a Panther.

[PoorOldSpike]

I have been playing both PC games (mostly historical) and miniature wargames longer than most here have been alive....
For example over the last two days I played random battles mode 1944 (the lieutenant leval? Easy) I’m on the attack, and I received Panzer IIIs as my main armor with a Marder as well, 1944? Panzer IIIs by that time are gone, or relegated to security anti partisan work.

1- I'm 72 for my sins (the Rock Legend generation) and have probably been alive longer than most doods here, so yah-boo to you..
(Many, many games have come and gone on my hard drive over the years, but PC2 is here to stay)

2- Don't forget to select the 'Custom Army' button in the random generator's 'Advanced Options', then when you start the battle you can sling out (Disband) any units that the game has dished up and buy better stuff.
Here are the 1944 (top) and 1945 (bottom) tank purchase screens so buy whatever you like, and buy more as the cash begins rolling in throughout the game up to the limit of available slots but be careful, a few Kingtigers will bleed your piggy bank dry, and each one takes up a massive (gulp) 9 slots.
Same applies with all other categories (infantry, AT, Arty, planes etc), just disband units you don't like and buy better ones..
(Incidentally start playing on the medium difficulty level (General) as soon as you can, so that we're all singing from the same hymn book as the majority)





PS- The purchase screens are of course tied to whatever year we choose in the generator, for example below is the German 1941 screen and the tanks Adolf hoped to conquer Russia (and North Africa) with-