Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

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superman81906
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Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by superman81906 » Sun May 31, 2020 12:39 pm

You fight hard and kick ass all through the campaign, and one mission you miss by one or two turns, and now you are a complete failure? I say this is garbage. Patch it so there is an OPTION to finish up to 3 turns late with increasing point penalties or other negative results, but you can still move forward in the campaign.

Horseman
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Horseman » Sun May 31, 2020 1:12 pm

You can select the option "No turn limit" at the start of a campaign.

You only get the prestige per turn up to the set number of turns the scenario is designed to have.

You also get the bonus prestige for finishing early so there's still an incentive to be a bit quicker

I believe this would work as a solution to your issue.

jeffoot77
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by jeffoot77 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:49 pm

exactly, this turn limit is nonsense and i always desactivate it now: no more stress, no more rush ! but you must play in harder difficulty beacause it is easier.
my custom single player mini-campaign in order of battle : normandie-niemen:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=374&t=79333&p=676302#p676302

Blade0
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Blade0 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:19 am

I disagree - this is one of the challenges in the game. It is based on reality, and if you don't like it, you can just turn it off.
I finished a playthrough with -5 turns challenge, and I only had to start Normandy over, and it was clearly my bad planning (haven't deployed to the NW area planning to approach it from land - which is just too slow).

Normandy is a good example on how important timing is - in case the operation haven't been fast enough, the German fleet would have been sunk by the 2-3* strong British home fleet, the British would have staged a counter-attack (they had an invasion of Norway on the way at the same time), and the Wermacht wouldn't have been ready to invade the lowlands and France in 1940. Chance is by losing this opportunity, they would have lost the war before it had begun in the earnest.

Horseman
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Horseman » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:00 am

Blade0 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:19 am
I disagree - this is one of the challenges in the game. It is based on reality, and if you don't like it, you can just turn it off.
I finished a playthrough with -5 turns challenge, and I only had to start Normandy over, and it was clearly my bad planning (haven't deployed to the NW area planning to approach it from land - which is just too slow).

Normandy is a good example on how important timing is - in case the operation haven't been fast enough, the German fleet would have been sunk by the 2-3* strong British home fleet, the British would have staged a counter-attack (they had an invasion of Norway on the way at the same time), and the Wermacht wouldn't have been ready to invade the lowlands and France in 1940. Chance is by losing this opportunity, they would have lost the war before it had begun in the earnest.
Sorry I'm a little confused. When you typed Normandy did you mean Norway?

ErissN6
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by ErissN6 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:40 pm

At least, it makes sense about Normandy (and Provence to the south), as if german had the time, they would be able to repell the invasion.
Time was both what being given to Allied armies by Resistance, and time was what being prevented to German army by Resistance.
If time does not count, french Resistance is irrelevant, which had multiply by 4!! the Allied speed, and halved the German speed.

superman81906
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by superman81906 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:37 pm

Blade0 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:19 am
I disagree - this is one of the challenges in the game. It is based on reality, and if you don't like it, you can just turn it off.
I finished a playthrough with -5 turns challenge, and I only had to start Normandy over, and it was clearly my bad planning (haven't deployed to the NW area planning to approach it from land - which is just too slow).

Normandy is a good example on how important timing is - in case the operation haven't been fast enough, the German fleet would have been sunk by the 2-3* strong British home fleet, the British would have staged a counter-attack (they had an invasion of Norway on the way at the same time), and the Wermacht wouldn't have been ready to invade the lowlands and France in 1940. Chance is by losing this opportunity, they would have lost the war before it had begun in the earnest.
Exactly, you started over, if I wanted to do that I would just skip to the end of the game and say I win. Your idea is bad. And a game is not "reality". And my idea of an option is excellent, if you don't like it you can just turn it off, lololol.

superman81906
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by superman81906 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:40 pm

Horseman wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:12 pm
You can select the option "No turn limit" at the start of a campaign.

You only get the prestige per turn up to the set number of turns the scenario is designed to have.

You also get the bonus prestige for finishing early so there's still an incentive to be a bit quicker

I believe this would work as a solution to your issue.
Not quite a fix. A more dynamic option for a turn penalty is a much better idea.

Horseman
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Horseman » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 pm

superman81906 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:40 pm
Horseman wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:12 pm
You can select the option "No turn limit" at the start of a campaign.

You only get the prestige per turn up to the set number of turns the scenario is designed to have.

You also get the bonus prestige for finishing early so there's still an incentive to be a bit quicker

I believe this would work as a solution to your issue.
Not quite a fix. A more dynamic option for a turn penalty is a much better idea.
Not really- what you want is more time my solution give a you that.

superman81906
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by superman81906 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am

Horseman wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 pm
superman81906 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:40 pm
Horseman wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:12 pm
You can select the option "No turn limit" at the start of a campaign.

You only get the prestige per turn up to the set number of turns the scenario is designed to have.

You also get the bonus prestige for finishing early so there's still an incentive to be a bit quicker

I believe this would work as a solution to your issue.
Not quite a fix. A more dynamic option for a turn penalty is a much better idea.
Not really- what you want is more time my solution give a you that.
But it gives unlimited time, that is NOT what I want. My idea is much better along with a good dynamic victory scale for turns finished, this would be WAY better and an improvement.

Horseman
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Horseman » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:01 am

superman81906 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am
Horseman wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 pm
superman81906 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:40 pm


Not quite a fix. A more dynamic option for a turn penalty is a much better idea.
Not really- what you want is more time my solution give a you that.
But it gives unlimited time, that is NOT what I want. My idea is much better along with a good dynamic victory scale for turns finished, this would be WAY better and an improvement.
There the already a dynamic system in place, the earlier you finish the more prestige you earn.

T34M43
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by T34M43 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:48 pm

Although I realize that losing by a turn is frustrating it sort of simulates that the battlefield is not in a vacuum. Think about it from a Moscow 41 point of view. If the capital was about to fall the Soviets would be rushing reinforcements into the campaign area. I think the turn limit simulates that your forces would have to take and prepare to hold the ground before a significant count-attack would unhinge your gains and therefore it makes sense to me.

uneducated
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by uneducated » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:55 pm

Why were you taking so long to finish the Scenario? Were you trying to avoid any casualties at all?

Schwarzvogel
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Schwarzvogel » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:38 am

superman81906 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am
Horseman wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 pm
superman81906 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:40 pm


Not quite a fix. A more dynamic option for a turn penalty is a much better idea.
Not really- what you want is more time my solution give a you that.
But it gives unlimited time, that is NOT what I want. My idea is much better along with a good dynamic victory scale for turns finished, this would be WAY better and an improvement.
To be very blunt, it sounds a bit like you're complaining for the sake of complaining. I do concede that a sort of dynamic victory scale would definitely be more interesting rather than an automatic loss when the turn limit expires, but I still think that there should be a steep penalty for taking too long to finish a scenario. For example, every turn after a certain point could drain your prestige exponentially (as no one would respect a general who took five years to capture a single village nor would they be particularly willing to allot him a lot of resources to continue squandering them wandering in the countryside instead of prosecuting the war effort). Or perhaps failing to finish the scenario in X turns could result in having vastly decreased core slots for the next mission, since the high command would prefer to allocate their resources to a more successful general who didn't set their entire war plan horribly behind schedule. Or would you prefer if missing the turn limit resulted in vastly increased opposition in the next scenario, i.e. a entrenched squad of conscripts behind every blade of grass or the trees speaking French, since your dilatory approach gave the enemy plenty of time to fortify the area with every man that could be thrown into uniform?

Somehow, I think that if the game worked in any of these ways, you'd still be complaining that it is bullshit to face fivefold the opposition, have half your units taken away, or lose most of your prestige on the next mission just because you were a turn or two too slow in the previous one!

Nonetheless, the current system does make sense if you think of it this way: completing the scenario in X turns is the task assigned to you by OKW. The victory hexes you need to capture are steps toward carrying out your assignment, and the number of turns you are allocated--which is really quite generous in most scenarios--is the maximum amount of time they can allot for that particular operation without throwing subsequent ops and plans off-kilter. If you are not capable of fulfilling the orders you are given, then why should you be allowed to remain in command and disrupt the overall war effort? The current system simulates that well enough--but if you don't like it, play with the turn limit off until you can figure out the optimal approach for meeting the turn limit in each scenario. Even with turn limits off, the notification about the turns remaining for the bonus prestige indicates the original turn limit for the scenario.

scott_mathieson
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by scott_mathieson » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:05 am

Schwarzvogel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:38 am
superman81906 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am
Horseman wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 pm


Not really- what you want is more time my solution give a you that.
But it gives unlimited time, that is NOT what I want. My idea is much better along with a good dynamic victory scale for turns finished, this would be WAY better and an improvement.


To be very blunt, it sounds a bit like you're complaining for the sake of complaining. I do concede that a sort of dynamic victory scale would definitely be more interesting rather than an automatic loss when the turn limit expires, but I still think that there should be a steep penalty for taking too long to finish a scenario. For example, every turn after a certain point could drain your prestige exponentially (as no one would respect a general who took five years to capture a single village nor would they be particularly willing to allot him a lot of resources to continue squandering them wandering in the countryside instead of prosecuting the war effort). Or perhaps failing to finish the scenario in X turns could result in having vastly decreased core slots for the next mission, since the high command would prefer to allocate their resources to a more successful general who didn't set their entire war plan horribly behind schedule. Or would you prefer if missing the turn limit resulted in vastly increased opposition in the next scenario, i.e. a entrenched squad of conscripts behind every blade of grass or the trees speaking French, since your dilatory approach gave the enemy plenty of time to fortify the area with every man that could be thrown into uniform?

Somehow, I think that if the game worked in any of these ways, you'd still be complaining that it is bullshit to face fivefold the opposition, have half your units taken away, or lose most of your prestige on the next mission just because you were a turn or two too slow in the previous one!

Nonetheless, the current system does make sense if you think of it this way: completing the scenario in X turns is the task assigned to you by OKW. The victory hexes you need to capture are steps toward carrying out your assignment, and the number of turns you are allocated--which is really quite generous in most scenarios--is the maximum amount of time they can allot for that particular operation without throwing subsequent ops and plans off-kilter. If you are not capable of fulfilling the orders you are given, then why should you be allowed to remain in command and disrupt the overall war effort? The current system simulates that well enough--but if you don't like it, play with the turn limit off until you can figure out the optimal approach for meeting the turn limit in each scenario. Even with turn limits off, the notification about the turns remaining for the bonus prestige indicates the original turn limit for the scenario.
Don't think there is much sense in many of those options, if you're general who cant get the job done your command is not going to send you in again and expect you to do it with less, think german generals losing battles wern't generally sacked so it does make sense. The flow of the game is generally one of do the job get promoted do bigger job, maybe in a grand captain there will be space to fail somehow, get mixture of smaller or bigger tasks but the maps are pretty big moments in the war and involved successful generals.

the original complaint about mechanici th egame that you ca turn off is bit bonkers though

superman81906
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by superman81906 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:14 am

Schwarzvogel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:38 am
superman81906 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am
Horseman wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 pm


Not really- what you want is more time my solution give a you that.
But it gives unlimited time, that is NOT what I want. My idea is much better along with a good dynamic victory scale for turns finished, this would be WAY better and an improvement.
To be very blunt, it sounds a bit like you're complaining for the sake of complaining. I do concede that a sort of dynamic victory scale would definitely be more interesting rather than an automatic loss when the turn limit expires, but I still think that there should be a steep penalty for taking too long to finish a scenario. For example, every turn after a certain point could drain your prestige exponentially (as no one would respect a general who took five years to capture a single village nor would they be particularly willing to allot him a lot of resources to continue squandering them wandering in the countryside instead of prosecuting the war effort). Or perhaps failing to finish the scenario in X turns could result in having vastly decreased core slots for the next mission, since the high command would prefer to allocate their resources to a more successful general who didn't set their entire war plan horribly behind schedule. Or would you prefer if missing the turn limit resulted in vastly increased opposition in the next scenario, i.e. a entrenched squad of conscripts behind every blade of grass or the trees speaking French, since your dilatory approach gave the enemy plenty of time to fortify the area with every man that could be thrown into uniform?

Somehow, I think that if the game worked in any of these ways, you'd still be complaining that it is bullshit to face fivefold the opposition, have half your units taken away, or lose most of your prestige on the next mission just because you were a turn or two too slow in the previous one!

Nonetheless, the current system does make sense if you think of it this way: completing the scenario in X turns is the task assigned to you by OKW. The victory hexes you need to capture are steps toward carrying out your assignment, and the number of turns you are allocated--which is really quite generous in most scenarios--is the maximum amount of time they can allot for that particular operation without throwing subsequent ops and plans off-kilter. If you are not capable of fulfilling the orders you are given, then why should you be allowed to remain in command and disrupt the overall war effort? The current system simulates that well enough--but if you don't like it, play with the turn limit off until you can figure out the optimal approach for meeting the turn limit in each scenario. Even with turn limits off, the notification about the turns remaining for the bonus prestige indicates the original turn limit for the scenario.
NOPE, not even close.

Not sure why some of you just can not understand the improvement of having and option to finish a few turns late with a penalty. Except that, like most things, people only care about things that affect them and are selfish, if you don't want to use this OPTION, then don't. It does not mean that it is not good or helpful to someone else. And to be very blunt, this thread is not a complaint, it is a request for something I find lacking. If you don't need it, don't use it, period. And don't assume to know what I like or don't like about the game or what I would complain about.

superman81906
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by superman81906 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:18 am

Horseman wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:01 am
superman81906 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am
Horseman wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 pm


Not really- what you want is more time my solution give a you that.
But it gives unlimited time, that is NOT what I want. My idea is much better along with a good dynamic victory scale for turns finished, this would be WAY better and an improvement.
There the already a dynamic system in place, the earlier you finish the more prestige you earn.
You are missing the point and idea of the post.

lav
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by lav » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:16 am

I tend to agree that there should be some variance to losing one battle. If you lose 2 or 3 different story, but definitely think the game in all it's glory shouldn't have a cliff after one mishap. Many ideas we all probably have, from things like a loss of your initial corps and rebuild, have to start over a few battles back to win back ground lost, or go to a different part of war.

Horseman
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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Horseman » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:36 am

superman81906 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:18 am
Horseman wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:01 am
superman81906 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am


But it gives unlimited time, that is NOT what I want. My idea is much better along with a good dynamic victory scale for turns finished, this would be WAY better and an improvement.
There the already a dynamic system in place, the earlier you finish the more prestige you earn.
You are missing the point and idea of the post.
You're missing the point of a time limit which you have the option to turn off

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Re: Losing the entire game due to missing by one or two turns is garbage.

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:35 am

Horseman wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:36 am
You're missing the point of a time limit which you have the option to turn off
New and improved designs are on the way.
viewtopic.php?f=464&t=99662
3. New scenario victory conditions beyond Victory Hex capturing.

One complaint about the traditions of Panzer General and Panzer Corps is the lack of mission variety. We've all seen maybe a bit too much of 'Capture all Victory Hexes' by now, we think.

While we’ll still make appropriate use of this mission type occasionally, players will also see a lot more objective variety moving forward. Missions types such as rescue, escort, interception, mine laying, and others have been spread out across the campaign.

And the way we've balanced this is by bringing back Degrees of Victory. Rather than have every mission be a binary 'win or lose', we've added more variety. Every scenario has a basic objective that you must complete to progress the campaign. This is the lowest degree of victory though, and is suitably easy to achieve.

However.

If you really want to see some very unique rewards and bonuses, you'll want to push yourself to accomplish the far more difficult and varied bonus objectives.

We've even implemented a new currency system to handle this interaction. As you complete bonus objectives, you’ll earn Commendation Points. At various points in the campaign, offers will be made to players who have earned enough Commendation Points... offers of fantastic bounties of captured equipment, special prototype units, and possibly even access to famous and legendary historical aces and officers of the war.

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