Looking ahead to Patch 5

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Horseman
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by Horseman » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:40 am

voxr wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:20 am
Yes, the Storch is very useful as an initial scout but personally, I often have more important things to do with them than maintaining persistent spotting on enemy units.

I use them as cheap filler to occupy air hexes above units not already covered by fighters or my flak umbrella, and as of the last patch actually using them in combat & gaining some experience on them is useful for later conversion to Ju 87/Hs 129/Fw 190 ground attack variants. I haven’t actually done the latter yet but with the way ground recon has been going (4 stars & 2 stars respectively on separate units after Poland!) it seems like a relatively quicker & easier way to get an elite bomber/fighter through conversion.

It’s just a QoL suggestion; not essential but sure would be nice to have instead of manually taking notes like I’m doing now.
I suspect the recon getting huge XP gains will not be easily replicated on the Storch.

I find with my ground recon that its getting 150-200 XP per turn just from its support ability. And then it gains more when/if it attacks or is attacked The Storch probably cant reliably get as much on average. Partly because it can't attack itself to squeeze a bit more out and partially because it can only provide its aim bonus against one enemy unit per turn.

fluffybunnyuk
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by fluffybunnyuk » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:20 pm

The solution to the Storch xp is convert 4* whatever that has air defense award. 3* air recon is decent enough until the endgame. Air defense makes it fairly safe from being shot down, while hanging out there split protecting fast moving units on blitzkrieg advance, cutting through the centre or the flank. 88s cant keep up, ready to fire, so i dont bother chasing with an AA gun. 4 split storchs giving 19% accuracy is enough to cover a 2 antitanks, 1 flammpanzer, 2 tanks, a recon, and an infantry unit, while 1 stays behind for repair or other duties. for 4 slots ... 8 split 6 strength 3* storchs is more useful than 1 size 12 88 flak unit.

Smolensk 43 is a good example with a blitzkrieg group charging for the smolensk supply hex any AA gun would get murdered theres so many AI units around. Without AA/fighter support the recons have to protect the charging units from suppression by air, and a cheesy surrender.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:59 pm

voxr wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:42 am
Could we mark previously spotted units somehow?..
Retributarr wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:14 am
When an 'Enemy-Unit' has been initially spotted for the very first time, I would suggest that a 'Binoculars-Icon' now be visually displayed by that particular 'Spotted-Unit'...

They're great ideas, PC2 needs an option for us to place markers on the map to mark known or suspected enemy positions etc..:)

Slitherine's Battle Academy 2 has such an option, here's a shot from a BA2 battle in which I've placed orange-topped marker pins all over the place to mark the position of enemy units that my attacking Brit force spotted earlier but have now vanished because of blocked LOS, or else they've ceased fire etc. The pins can all be labelled when we place them, and read off when we mouse over them, (eg 88AT, Panzerschreck, 105 gun etc)

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:33 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Tanks were invented to make war more fun

Horseman
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by Horseman » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:05 pm

Oh those are games I loved too (BA1&2)

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:24 pm

Horseman wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:05 pm
Oh those are games I loved too (BA1&2)
Me too, Panzer Corps 2 and Battle Academy 2 will be staying on my hard drive for a very long time to come..:)
(PS- Unlike BA1, BA2 has got a sensational random mission generator like PC2)

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 92&t=97628
Tanks were invented to make war more fun

dalfrede
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by dalfrede » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:29 pm

As others have pointed out Recon experience of 50 per 'attack' aided is too high.
I think one point of experience for each point of recon would be better.
ie 10 strength recon gets +10 experience, 12 strength gets +12.
As is the recon gets experience faster than actual attacking unit.

Another option would be recon gets same experience boost as attacking unit.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

Horseman
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by Horseman » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:40 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:29 pm
As others have pointed out Recon experience of 50 per 'attack' aided is too high.
I think one point of experience for each point of recon would be better.
ie 10 strength recon gets +10 experience, 12 strength gets +12.
As is the recon gets experience faster than actual attacking unit.

Another option would be recon gets same experience boost as attacking unit.
One useful result of the obcene xp gain is that you dont have to worry about using elite replacements so much.....you'll soon earn that xp back!

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:43 pm

voxr wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:07 am
Unfortunately I believe one of the principles of UX is to keep the UI as uncluttered as possible so having additional icons and such would make the screen quite cluttered.
I believe players will intuitively understand it is the 'last known position' rather than 'confirmed position' if the unit can be seen in fog of war.

Ah, but enemy artillery units firing out of the fog of war are especially annoying because they only appear on the map for a couple of seconds while they're actually firing (assuming they're even in the map zoom frame), then they vanish again. So what we need is a marker that we can place on its hex to remind us where it is so that we can clobber it with an airstrike or whatever..:)

PS- an alternative (and possibly better) idea would be for artillery that's fired out of the fog of war to stay visible til the end of our next turn so that we can deal with it.
Tanks were invented to make war more fun

voxr
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by voxr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:55 pm

fluffybunnyuk wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:20 pm
The solution to the Storch xp is convert 4* whatever that has air defense award. 3* air recon is decent enough until the endgame. Air defense makes it fairly safe from being shot down, while hanging out there split protecting fast moving units on blitzkrieg advance, cutting through the centre or the flank. 88s cant keep up, ready to fire, so i dont bother chasing with an AA gun. 4 split storchs giving 19% accuracy is enough to cover a 2 antitanks, 1 flammpanzer, 2 tanks, a recon, and an infantry unit, while 1 stays behind for repair or other duties. for 4 slots ... 8 split 6 strength 3* storchs is more useful than 1 size 12 88 flak unit.

Smolensk 43 is a good example with a blitzkrieg group charging for the smolensk supply hex any AA gun would get murdered theres so many AI units around. Without AA/fighter support the recons have to protect the charging units from suppression by air, and a cheesy surrender.
I'm not that interested in having an experienced Storch since its scouting ability is independent of its veterancy.

Much more useful is to take advantage of the inflated experience gains of recon to convert it to a type that can actually use the stars. I haven't done this yet myself but you shouldn't even lose a full stat's worth of experience if converting to another tactical bomber. Ground recons are much more useful if you're after the accuracy boost anyway.

fluffybunnyuk
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by fluffybunnyuk » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:34 pm

Ground recons late game get expensive for the slots. 3 slots for a recon vs 1 for a storch. Much better to convert 4* or 5* strat bombers to air recons/fighters, and after spamming overrun onto tanks, converting them to recons , gaining xp then converting them to AA,anti-tank. According to steam 1.8% of players have unlocked 5* anti-tank achievement which surprised me since its easy to get fairly early too via the recon route. Somethings working for me there.

voxr
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by voxr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:02 pm

fluffybunnyuk wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:34 pm
Ground recons late game get expensive for the slots. 3 slots for a recon vs 1 for a storch. Much better to convert 4* or 5* strat bombers to air recons/fighters, and after spamming overrun onto tanks, converting them to recons , gaining xp then converting them to AA,anti-tank. According to steam 1.8% of players have unlocked 5* anti-tank achievement which surprised me since its easy to get fairly early too via the recon route. Somethings working for me there.
That's how I got those achievements too, though I converted directly from armour as experience for recons didn't exist in my previous run.

I have to strongly disagree with your assertion on Storch v. ground recon. The Storch/109 PR are very good at scouting (as they should be, being their primary role) and offer great slot efficiency, agreed.

However, I find core slots to be more of an issue early than late. I have always played with No Overstrength, so have never found myself lacking slots to construct battlegroups that can deal with their operational objectives.

Ground recons are still relatively cheap, project ZOC (and so can act as stopgap blockers), most have 8 all-terrain or 6 tracked movement (and so can assist multiple tactical engagements), have decent stats & can slip behind enemy lines to target the soft rear echelon/finish off stragglers, and most importantly, their mobility & phased movement let you pull off some encirclements that would otherwise be very difficult.

voxr
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by voxr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:09 pm

Horseman wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:40 am
voxr wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:20 am
Yes, the Storch is very useful as an initial scout but personally, I often have more important things to do with them than maintaining persistent spotting on enemy units.

I use them as cheap filler to occupy air hexes above units not already covered by fighters or my flak umbrella, and as of the last patch actually using them in combat & gaining some experience on them is useful for later conversion to Ju 87/Hs 129/Fw 190 ground attack variants. I haven’t actually done the latter yet but with the way ground recon has been going (4 stars & 2 stars respectively on separate units after Poland!) it seems like a relatively quicker & easier way to get an elite bomber/fighter through conversion.

It’s just a QoL suggestion; not essential but sure would be nice to have instead of manually taking notes like I’m doing now.
I suspect the recon getting huge XP gains will not be easily replicated on the Storch.

I find with my ground recon that its getting 150-200 XP per turn just from its support ability. And then it gains more when/if it attacks or is attacked The Storch probably cant reliably get as much on average. Partly because it can't attack itself to squeeze a bit more out and partially because it can only provide its aim bonus against one enemy unit per turn.
I just farmed ~2,000 experience on my Storch on Norway South, 10 turns to go for the scenario.

Will concede this normally doesn't happen though, since most of my other air assets are off doing more pressing things.

Usually I prefer to hit the immediate target with tactical air strikes so no air hexes will be available for the Storch. In this case I figured it was better to bank experience for the Storch in lieu of strafing them with 109's.

Retributarr
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by Retributarr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:25 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:43 pm

Ah, but enemy artillery units firing out of the fog of war are especially annoying because they only appear on the map for a couple of seconds while they're actually firing (assuming they're even in the map zoom frame), then they vanish again. So what we need is a marker that we can place on its hex to remind us where it is so that we can clobber it with an airstrike or whatever..:)

PS- an alternative (and possibly better) idea would be for artillery that's fired out of the fog of war to stay visible til the end of our next turn so that we can deal with it.
"I Say!"... what you need is not a 'Marker' to make the Artillery-visible... but instead... some-kind of "X" marks-the-spot "thingie" to identify the nebulous location of this 'Ne*farious- Disrupter'.

Then... "I Say"... that now you have the approximate co-ordinates of its location... you should now be able to bring your 'Batteries' to bear on the target as they say... though "at a some-what reduced impact/damage level" [? 40%]... since you cannot now precisely determine its exact position.

Another concern!... is that for this 'Artillery' to shoot 'Out-Of-The-Fog'... it must have a 'Sighting-Means' of some sort.. meaning that... a 'Spotter' is necessary... "is a must!" for this situation to make 'artillerie'-barraging at all possible... even from 'The-Fog'.

OldFocker
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by OldFocker » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:05 pm

Can we please have an option to lose the mini map?!! Personally I don't use it and it gets in the way.

Patrick Ward
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by Patrick Ward » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:45 pm

OldFocker wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:05 pm
Can we please have an option to lose the mini map?!! Personally I don't use it and it gets in the way.
Press 7 or its the right most button in the top left of the screen. Toggle minimap.

P
............................

Pat a Pixel Pusher

............................

DerKeyser
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by DerKeyser » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:59 pm

I would like to support the idea of a security force type unit. (Low cost, low count and no real combat capability).

Personally I think the flooding issue (and thereby hinderance to blietzkrieg) is best solved by giving the security force two different traits:

1: It has no attack capability - only close defence (and perhaps only 5 strength).
But it can achieve a decent close defence capability by establishing a high entrenchment value through turns standing still.

2: All units attacking a security unit gains overrun capability if they are capable of destroying it (regardless of terrain, but not indirect fire). That way blitzkrieg can continue if you are able to destoy it upon initial attack (or have done some proper shelling before attacking)

Edit: to keep the cost/slot values of existing units comparable, it might be an idea to have a security type force contain 10 strengh at the cost of 80 prestige and 1 core slot, but NOT consume an additional core slot to split it. That way one purchase can se used to guard two cities. Thereby making prestige and core cost more “palatable”

Retributarr
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by Retributarr » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:31 pm

"DerKeyser":... I'm not a good-study on this aspect of the Game, however... your suggestions to me at least... is starting to make a lot of sense!.

This "subject-matter" has been subjected to several other ideas that just seemed to not have 'Panned-Out or to have had achieved any Successful Acceptance'.

I think... 'perhaps' you have just hit the 'Solution-Bulls-Eye' on this frustrating topic!.

DerKeyser
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by DerKeyser » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:08 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:31 pm
"DerKeyser":... I'm not a good-study on this aspect of the Game, however... your suggestions to me at least... is starting to make a lot of sense!.

This "subject-matter" has been subjected to several other ideas that just seemed to not have 'Panned-Out or to have had achieved any Successful Acceptance'.

I think... 'perhaps' you have just hit the 'Solution-Bulls-Eye' on this frustrating topic!.
Thanks :-) I too feel this unit type is sorely missing from the game. A rogue scout can ruin everything since it doesn’t even loose its resupply even though it’s in complete enemy territory. In my opinion that issue is in just as much need of fixing... - default edge supply should be “home” edge only for starters.

BaronVonWalrus
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:26 pm

DerKeyser wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:08 pm
Retributarr wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:31 pm
"DerKeyser":... I'm not a good-study on this aspect of the Game, however... your suggestions to me at least... is starting to make a lot of sense!.

This "subject-matter" has been subjected to several other ideas that just seemed to not have 'Panned-Out or to have had achieved any Successful Acceptance'.

I think... 'perhaps' you have just hit the 'Solution-Bulls-Eye' on this frustrating topic!.
Thanks :-) I too feel this unit type is sorely missing from the game. A rogue scout can ruin everything since it doesn’t even loose its resupply even though it’s in complete enemy territory. In my opinion that issue is in just as much need of fixing... - default edge supply should be “home” edge only for starters.
If I may - it's the ability of isolated units behind the lines to stay in supply that's more vexing for me; knowing that I have to keep a lid on enemy recon units and keep them from slipping through (especially with their vulnerability to air attack) is something I'm comfortable with. However, an SU-122 dashing off in retreat into the fog of war behind my front after losing an engagement and then popping up in exactly the worst place it could three turns later with full ammo and fuel despite its total isolation, is embarassing. (This did happen a few rounds ago in my campaign and I was too frustrated to screenshot it!)

DerKeyser
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Re: Looking ahead to Patch 5

Post by DerKeyser » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:34 am

BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:26 pm

If I may - it's the ability of isolated units behind the lines to stay in supply that's more vexing for me; knowing that I have to keep a lid on enemy recon units and keep them from slipping through (especially with their vulnerability to air attack) is something I'm comfortable with. However, an SU-122 dashing off in retreat into the fog of war behind my front after losing an engagement and then popping up in exactly the worst place it could three turns later with full ammo and fuel despite its total isolation, is embarassing. (This did happen a few rounds ago in my campaign and I was too frustrated to screenshot it!)
I agree - it’s in dire need of fixing. But that does not preempt the need for security forces. I think both solutions are sorely needed to balance authenticity a lot more in PC2

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