unit experience

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scott_mathieson
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unit experience

Post by scott_mathieson » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:17 am

How do people find the 5 stars system for handling experience. I think it's a bit unrealistic in reality inexperienced troops would be at a severe disadvantage against seasoned troops. but there would be little difference in troops once they attain certain level of experience. for example a unit that has been fighting since 39 and another who has been fighting since 40 will have pretty much similar effectiveness from that experience in 41 or 42.

think there are maybe too many levels maybe inexperienced, battle hardened and elite levels would be enough with the first gap much bigger than the second.

BaronVonWalrus
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Re: unit experience

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:36 pm

My 2p worth from a campaign perspective:

5-star Soviet rocket artillery, with its 100% accuracy and rapid fire, is terrifying.

5-star defending units get a 20% defensive bonus compared to the 50% offensive bonus for 5-star attacking units. I'll leave that out there.

Personally,, i quite like the progression offered by (at least) 5 different XP levels. I feel that only 3 levels would be a step back. Again from a campaign view, those high-XP enemy units inspire a genuine sense of urgency / threat and provide flavour to the battle.

Also, there needs to be a reward for sinking all that prestige into elite replacements for your own units!

adiekmann
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Re: unit experience

Post by adiekmann » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:32 am

scott_mathieson wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:17 am
for example a unit that has been fighting since 39 and another who has been fighting since 40 will have pretty much similar effectiveness from that experience in 41 or 42.
True, but even in a Grand Campaign the unit you bought in '41 or '42 will also obtain that 4 or 5 star level by '44, depending on unit type. This is based of course on PC1 experience. It remains to be seen how that is handled in PC2 DLCs. In PC1 there was a cap to experience for each DLC in the GC, otherwise you could easily have 5 star units in 1940 and that would be so powerful to unbalance the game. So units such as tanks that I added in the '41 DLC would reach 5 stars before it even got its second hero (based on kills). Again, it will be interesting to see how that and hero awarding will work. So far from comments made by Kerensky, it seems that you still are receiving one hero after each scenario, plus some special conditional bonus heroes. But the experience question...we will see...unless someone in the know responds to this... :D

adiekmann
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Re: unit experience

Post by adiekmann » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:42 am

BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:36 pm
Personally,, i quite like the progression offered by (at least) 5 different XP levels. I feel that only 3 levels would be a step back. Again from a campaign view, those high-XP enemy units inspire a genuine sense of urgency / threat and provide flavour to the battle.

Also, there needs to be a reward for sinking all that prestige into elite replacements for your own units!
Plus, I believe that like in PC1 your units gain XP slower at higher levels than they do in the 1-3 star range. I don't remember if I saw it actually written down somewhere, but just play experience shows me that it takes a lot longer for your 3 star and 4 star units to get that next star than it does for units to get 1-2 stars. After two stars is when I seem to notice that it really begins to slow down. Unlike PC1, I find it harder to reap XP on fighters than even AA! AT would be next hardest followed then by infantry (pioniere being the quickest among them).

RandomAttack
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Re: unit experience

Post by RandomAttack » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:59 am

I guess this is a pet peeve of mine that I have raised before, but IMO experience is not handled realistically at all. This is driven primarily by the elite replacement mechanic, when in real life no such thing did (or could have) existed for land units except in VERY small numbers a VERY limited amount of times. There really shouldn't be any 5-star units in existence. ALL units, on ALL sides, were diluted by replacements. The idea that somehow, late in the war, the Germans (or anyone else) could somehow have had multitudes of 5-star experienced units in existence is absurd. I mean, if your tank unit takes 80% casualties and you can replace it with all-elite replacements? I don't care HOW much prestige you have, that just shouldn't be possible. Yet people will moan that fuel & ammo aren't portrayed accurately while ignoring that an infinite number of "elite" replacements are just sitting around to called upon.
Edit: Oh, BTW, in any war movie you ever saw did ANYONE ever get large amount of elite replacements? The "green" replacement is so common it is a cliche...

One can play using only green replacements, but I think the scenarios are designed assuming the opponent will have lots of uber-units, so that is an additional challenge if you play that way. I think it could have been handled better having, say, only 3 levels of experience: Conscript/Green; Veteran; and Elite (very few). But I will say the impact of experience is nowhere near as uber as it was in PC1 since it mostly impacts accuracy rather than adding large combat power bonuses, so I consider it a big improvement.

voxr
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Re: unit experience

Post by voxr » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:30 am

RandomAttack wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:59 am
I guess this is a pet peeve of mine that I have raised before, but IMO experience is not handled realistically at all. This is driven primarily by the elite replacement mechanic, when in real life no such thing did (or could have) existed for land units except in VERY small numbers a VERY limited amount of times. There really shouldn't be any 5-star units in existence. ALL units, on ALL sides, were diluted by replacements. The idea that somehow, late in the war, the Germans (or anyone else) could somehow have had multitudes of 5-star experienced units in existence is absurd. I mean, if your tank unit takes 80% casualties and you can replace it with all-elite replacements? I don't care HOW much prestige you have, that just shouldn't be possible. Yet people will moan that fuel & ammo aren't portrayed accurately while ignoring that an infinite number of "elite" replacements are just sitting around to called upon.
Edit: Oh, BTW, in any war movie you ever saw did ANYONE ever get large amount of elite replacements? The "green" replacement is so common it is a cliche...

One can play using only green replacements, but I think the scenarios are designed assuming the opponent will have lots of uber-units, so that is an additional challenge if you play that way. I think it could have been handled better having, say, only 3 levels of experience: Conscript/Green; Veteran; and Elite (very few). But I will say the impact of experience is nowhere near as uber as it was in PC1 since it mostly impacts accuracy rather than adding large combat power bonuses, so I consider it a big improvement.
Actually I think experience is more powerful in PC2 than the original.

I don't remember the exact values but in PC1 units got a few points in, for example, attack or defence with varying increases depending on unit class. For late war tanks (ie. Tigers) that's maybe a 10% increase in combat power.

In PC2 once a certain breakpoint (8, I believe) in difference between attack and defence has been reached, accuracy becomes the primary limitation in damage done/taken. It doesn't matter if I have a 60 HA or 20 HA v. your 10 defence as I am still statistically only going to kill 5 points every attack. At 5 stars assuming no experience/entrenchment on enemy I am going to delete it in 1 shot due to 100% accuracy.

Combat stats cease to have any relevance past a certain point. With the current Wehr campaign and no capping of experience it is much easier to boost killing/defensive power through experience rather than equipment in the short term, especially if you abuse recon experience gain and convert them to actual line units.

For illustration, at Typhoon I have 2 Panzers (1 Somua S35 & 1 T-34/40) and 1 SPAT (Pzjg I B) at 5 stars with another 2 recon units & 1 Storch sitting at 5999 experience ready for conversion.

RandomAttack
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Re: unit experience

Post by RandomAttack » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:08 pm

voxr wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:30 am

Actually I think experience is more powerful in PC2 than the original.
Could be, but it just doesn't seem that way to me. Accuracy wasn't used in PC1, so the full weight of the stat increase was always applied, while accuracy increase is still subject to RNG-- more likely to hit but not a given, then the result is determined (yet another roll). Anectdotally, it just seems to me that experience (along with overstrength) was a lot more potent in PC1.

adiekmann
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Re: unit experience

Post by adiekmann » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:22 pm

RandomAttack wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:08 pm
voxr wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:30 am

Actually I think experience is more powerful in PC2 than the original.
Could be, but it just doesn't seem that way to me. Accuracy wasn't used in PC1, so the full weight of the stat increase was always applied, while accuracy increase is still subject to RNG-- more likely to hit but not a given, then the result is determined (yet another roll). Anectdotally, it just seems to me that experience (along with overstrength) was a lot more potent in PC1.
I go back and forth on this...and I am not sure. The mechanics/influence of experience and other factors as previously mentioned of the game are definitely different than it was in PC1. For me it is just hard(er) to figure out...so far at least...as are the stats of the units and how they figure into the calculations of combat as mentioned in other threads. Experience - and the corresponding bonuses - seem to matter more than even the units' stats. But that was true in PC1 too so I don't know. Maybe we need to study the after combat logs regularly to get a better sense of what is going on?

SineMora
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Re: unit experience

Post by SineMora » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:21 pm

In a vacuum it's definitely stronger in PzC2, as w/o it you're looking at flat out missing half of your attacks on average, which was certainly not the case in PzC. Experience didn't really improve stats that much in PzC, but it did allow for OS, which was extremely important, at least if you played on higher difficulty settings (von Manstein w/o OS? Sounds fun). If you allow for combined arms the value of experience drops drastically in PzC2, as OSing doesn't require experience and you can easily compensate by using recons and suppressing targets instead of trying to destroy everything outright. So all things considered I'd argue that it was a lot more important in PzC; I could see myself waltzing through PzC2 with green troops as long as I got to pick my traits, but a full green army in PzC1 GC East on higher difficulty settings (or Ultmate, perish the thought)? Not really, no.
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adiekmann
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Re: unit experience

Post by adiekmann » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:48 pm

SineMora wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:21 pm
In a vacuum it's definitely stronger in PzC2, as w/o it you're looking at flat out missing half of your attacks on average, which was certainly not the case in PzC. Experience didn't really improve stats that much in PzC, but it did allow for OS, which was extremely important, at least if you played on higher difficulty settings (von Manstein w/o OS? Sounds fun). If you allow for combined arms the value of experience drops drastically in PzC2, as OSing doesn't require experience and you can easily compensate by using recons and suppressing targets instead of trying to destroy everything outright. So all things considered I'd argue that it was a lot more important in PzC; I could see myself waltzing through PzC2 with green troops as long as I got to pick my traits, but a full green army in PzC1 GC East on higher difficulty settings (or Ultmate, perish the thought)? Not really, no.
In PC1 initiative was hugely important, something that I did not fully appreciate at first, and there were certain bonuses that a unit would receive with each level of experience that wasn't listed in the right-click stats. Unless you carefully examined the combat logs, or read these forums regularly, you probably wouldn't even be aware of them. The most important one was the extra initiative bonus that you got with each level of experience. If your experience level was significantly higher than that of the unit you were attacking, it was virtually the equivalent to a "first strike" hero. Now add that to your point concerning OS and that allowed you to wipe out an entire enemy unit with a single attack. And for much of the GC, most of your core units held such an advantage over the AI.

Now with PC2, however, it seems that the attack bonuses in accuracy that come with experience seem to have overshadowed or even replaced the importance of initiative.

SineMora
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Re: unit experience

Post by SineMora » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:07 pm

Admittedly I haven't played PzC for ages, but I tend to think of initiative as more important for infantry (possibly because German armour ended up with great initiative regardless, whereas infantry, well... There's a reason Oleh Dir was overpowered). The Mass Attack mechanic in PzC2 certainly makes initiative a lot less valuable, as you can usually compensate for any shortcoming by stacking it additional Mass Attack modifiers (while attacking anyway -- when you're defending fire support units will typically fire first regardless).
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adiekmann
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Re: unit experience

Post by adiekmann » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:43 pm

SineMora wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:07 pm
Admittedly I haven't played PzC for ages, but I tend to think of initiative as more important for infantry (possibly because German armour ended up with great initiative regardless, whereas infantry, well... There's a reason Oleh Dir was overpowered). The Mass Attack mechanic in PzC2 certainly makes initiative a lot less valuable, as you can usually compensate for any shortcoming by stacking it additional Mass Attack modifiers (while attacking anyway -- when you're defending fire support units will typically fire first regardless).
There were mass attack and defense bonuses in PC1 too, it just didn't flash them. Yet another bonus that was hidden and that many were unaware of. But yes, I agree, the difference was most noticeably felt with infantry and I would add fighters.

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