Passive vs Active Defence

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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Passive vs Active Defence

Post by Ludendorf »

There's been quite a lot of discussion about 'camping' in this game; that is, sitting pretty on the best piece of defensive terrain on the map (usually near the map's edge) and refusing to give battle, in the hope that your opponent will be forced to attack you over the obstacles in order to engage you.

Now there are, in my experience, usually ways that the player facing the 'camper' can deal with this situation. Armies that have good skirmisher and medium options can surround and erode away at the defensive position until it becomes vulnerable to an assault. Even heavy units can eventually get the upper hand sometimes if they can keep manoeuvring around the stationary army and get enough force concentration and flank attacks in at a particularly exposed area. (Cavalry can be surprisingly useful in mountain assaults as they can flank, disrupt, drop back, flank and fragment, and then break the enemy without getting sucked into melee on the bad ground. Don't discount your cavalry in such a situation.)

However, my main topic for this post is more from the camper, or should I say, the defender's point of view. There is passive defence, which is simply holing up on difficult terrain to assault and hoping you can repel all attacks by the time the sun goes down, and then there is the (usually much more effective and viable) active defence.

A player who is practicing active defence may start in a very defensible position; on top of a mountain, behind a marsh or stream, between rough ground on one side and a built up area on the other, etc. The expectation is that the attacker will start to move up and encircle or chip away at the position over time. However, most of the time the attacker will have to split up their force a little bit or focus on a particular part of the line in order to achieve this. They will also have to invest resources in winning the skirmish. A player who is practicing active defence will wait until the attacker is at their most vulnerable point (usually just before their flanking or breakthrough forces are actually in position for an assault) and then strike forth from their defensive position against the most exposed part of the attackers line; perhaps one that has been worn down or disrupted by arrow fire, or just a part of the line the attacker has left thin.

Experienced players on the offensive against a tough position will, of course, manoeuvre in such a way as to minimise these chances, and will keep the defenders bottled up under missile fire if they can win the skirmish. However, even the most experienced players won't be able to keep all avenues of attack closed to the defender all of the time if the defender has staged his or her troops properly. This is how armies that seem like they don't stand a ghost of a chance out in the open (perhaps due to low frontage, like the expensive Avars, or due to squishiness, like a massed archer army) can get the upper hand against dangerous heavy or medium opponents without giving up all initiative and drawing out the battle.

This can also be a way to wriggle your way out of a draw if both armies are unwilling to advance. If the heavy or the medium army exposes just a bit of themselves, either by the heavy army making some inroads into the difficult terrain, or by the mediums drawing up part of their army out in the open, it can lure the other army in and start the battle on more reasonable terms. Which side gets the advantage still comes down to who can manoeuvre best and pressure their opponent into making the most disadvantageous moves... another reason to take your skirmishers with you if a stalemate seems likely!

Though this does underline a need to be a bit flexible. Persian Sparabara can't fight out in the open against Greek hoplites very well, so having part of your line anchored by forest or rough ground isn't an unreasonable situation. But if your entire Persian army is in dense forest, there really isn't much the Greeks can do, just as an example.

(And believe me, I've tried. My heavy infantry assault on a forest full of bowmen did not end well. :oops: )
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by SimonLancaster »

Yes, sometimes I try this.. but a. there aren’t always obvious weak points or good match-ups and b. because of the turn-based system sometimes tough to move over quickly to the weak spot (unlike games like Total War).

Cavalry and chariots can really help for counterattacks.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by MVP7 »

In comparison to most games FoG2 really heavily favors active defense over passive. Even the best positions are usually ultimately outflanked if the defenders don't reposition and passively defending units rarely achieves an outright rout against attacker. Playing against the AI (which usually has major points advantage) I have found very aggressive offense to be the best defense as playing passively usually means the enemy has more time to position the army and take better advantage of its superior numbers. Since neither multiplayer nor singleplayer really have situations where one player would have overwhelming advantage over the other (i.e. the resources for full on assault) so virtually all even battles are acts of mutual active defense with both sides trying to maintain terrain advantage and attack weaknesses.

Isn't the type of camping that mostly gets lambasted the one where one side moves back against the edges of the map (gaining immovable flank protection from invisible walls) and stays there for the entire battle? Even with smart play from the attacker that usually results in a slow and boring game to the turn limit where both sides just try to achieve a small points advantage.
SLancaster wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:52 pm Yes, sometimes I try this.. but a. there aren’t always obvious weak points or good match-ups and b. because of the turn-based system sometimes tough to move over quickly to the weak spot (unlike games like Total War).
Shouldn't you always have a healthy pool of reserve units ready to exploit or plug those weaknesses :)?
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by SimonLancaster »

I mainly play medium sized armies.. not that many 'reserves' as such. Maybe 2-3 units and they are usually spread out as well. Yes, as I said, cavalry can be easily redirected.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

It depends on the armies though. Passive defense can guarantee a draw sometimes. If you have Classical Greeks vs Persians, who have piled their entire army on rough ground fringed with Difficult Slope, that's a draw. If you have Bedouins and your enemy piles their entire army into a forest, well... that's a draw, nothing you can do about it.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by melm »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:24 am It depends on the armies though. Passive defense can guarantee a draw sometimes. If you have Classical Greeks vs Persians, who have piled their entire army on rough ground fringed with Difficult Slope, that's a draw. If you have Bedouins and your enemy piles their entire army into a forest, well... that's a draw, nothing you can do about it.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by MikeC_81 »

MVP7 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:24 pm Isn't the type of camping that mostly gets lambasted the one where one side moves back against the edges of the map (gaining immovable flank protection from invisible walls) and stays there for the entire battle? Even with smart play from the attacker that usually results in a slow and boring game to the turn limit where both sides just try to achieve a small points advantage.
The primary issue is the lack of turns and some terrain types that are just "no-go" terrain zones for certain armies. Map edge camping, you can't do much about but it is rare for a position to be usable right on the map edge.

More often it is a case where there is terrain dominating on one half of the map and one army will beat the other to it handily. A player might simply fortify that position and you simply don't have enough turns to move around and take it from the side where its terrain advantage isn't as severe. That's because you have to keep your army far enough away from the defensive position while moving so that they cannot just pounce on you while you are strung out and disorganized. With something like an HF army, you could spend an entire game just to set up shop to attack from a different direction. So you are left with a crap choice where you accept the forced draw or attacking at a severe disadvantage. Then there is the rough terrain camp where you just sit in the forest or rough with MF against an HF heavy army and refuse to move out of it.

You can see in the Rally Point thread in the DL where it has gotten to the point where metagaming draws against good players is now accepted as a valid metagame strategy since there are no rules to prevent it and deny your opponent points by not playing the game. That is an insane concept to me as a competitive tournament in a game should be to try and determine who is the best player of the game, not who can sit there and figure out when it is beneficial to simply not play the game at all. The logical extreme of this metagame strategy would be to identify in a tournament the top contenders and have every other player actively collude to play uber defensively or hide in whatever terrain is available to minimize the chance of these players to get points and then play "regularly" among the rest of them.

The logically flawed argument that is often trotted out for this as acceptable behavior is that it was "historical" for armies to refuse battle. Sure I get it, but we sign up for a tournament or even click accept to a random friendly, the presupposition is that we are intending to play a game of historical battle, *not* a game of refusing historical battle.

Part of it is a game design problem. The map generator creates maps that no sane "general" would choose to offer battle in. Part of it is a tournament rules problem where the map is generated as a "one-off" RNG event with no recourse for a "smart" general to refuse battle in. Part of it is a player problem where the fear of losing is enough incentive for them to try and not play the game.....that they signed up to play.

edit: Not picking on Pete's tournament but I would just point out that in the DL, if you think you can't win against an opponent due to either a skill gap or a terrain disparity, the DL currently actively incentivizes you to find a way to draw the game. In both cases, you gain 0 points and you can deny your opponent the chance to earn any points. You essentially have a net loss of 0 against that player and can try to win a division off of the remaining games. The threshold for gaining the 3-1 split is high enough to discourage active play since that situation still puts you at a -2 point relative loss to that player nevermind the fact that if you just lose outright they get the 4 points and you get 0. So camping nets you the advantage of forcing the other player to come at you at a disadvantage so you can potentially net 4 points. If they don't engage, then you have lost nothing relative to that other player. Sure you can't do that in every game but as players in the Rally Thread have pointed out, strategically selecting when to do so seems to be perfectly valid.

There is also a reason why most professional sports or organized games have ways to prevent negative play or camping. You MUST make a move in Chess or GO for example. Most "ball" oriented sports have concepts like "offsides" or time violation/delay of game rules which actively try to curb negative play.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by pompeytheflatulent »

I think camping is mostly a issue of tournament rules. In the Slitherine automated tournaments I rarely encounter camping, probably because even a bad loss will net you more points than a 0-0 draw.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

MikeC_81 wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:54 am That is an insane concept to me as a competitive tournament in a game should be to try and determine who is the best player of the game, not who can sit there and figure out when it is beneficial to simply not play the game at all.
But I don't think the League really is meant to see who is the best player of the game. After all, good players already don't get their first pick of army choice, unless they think outside of the box. In general though, top players don't get the top armies. Furthermore, the League doesn't use mirror matches, which do a much better job of showing who has done better, as both players must use both armies on the exact same terrain.

Instead, the League is a fun way to force players to play with a certain army 9 times in a section to see what they can do. The best League players *do* tend to be the best players overall, but it seems to me that the purpose of the League has never been to scientifically determine who the best players are, and then raise them to the top as a result of their skill.

Edit: As a further point, I think passive play partially results from the artificial setups of even points Open Battle. Historically, one side would feel more compelled to force the issue for one reason or another - they have more or better trained men, the terrain would be to their advantage, their army is running out of food/dying from disease and won't be in shape to fight soon, etc. etc. Battles between evenly matched forces would have been rare events indeed, and many of the standoffs we read about result from neither side wanting to give up that advantage.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by Ludendorf »

Come to think of it, the other battles are rather underutilised. Attack and Defend set ups could use more gameplay. (Does FOG II even have Attack/Defend? I'm not sure if that's just Pike and Shot/Sengoku.)
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by MikeC_81 »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:31 pm Edit: As a further point, I think passive play partially results from the artificial setups of even points Open Battle. Historically, one side would feel more compelled to force the issue for one reason or another - they have more or better trained men, the terrain would be to their advantage, their army is running out of food/dying from disease and won't be in shape to fight soon, etc. etc. Battles between evenly matched forces would have been rare events indeed, and many of the standoffs we read about result from neither side wanting to give up that advantage.
We play even point battles because we view it is fair right? And if you get to choose the army (mostly) that you want to play with and logic would dictate that you would pick an army that you would be willing to fight with under fair conditions no?

Maybe a tournament format where 1 side gets to obtain a default win in a draw situation but has to play with 100 fewer points?
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by DanZanzibar »

MikeC_81 wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:10 am
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:31 pm Edit: As a further point, I think passive play partially results from the artificial setups of even points Open Battle. Historically, one side would feel more compelled to force the issue for one reason or another - they have more or better trained men, the terrain would be to their advantage, their army is running out of food/dying from disease and won't be in shape to fight soon, etc. etc. Battles between evenly matched forces would have been rare events indeed, and many of the standoffs we read about result from neither side wanting to give up that advantage.
We play even point battles because we view it is fair right? And if you get to choose the army (mostly) that you want to play with and logic would dictate that you would pick an army that you would be willing to fight with under fair conditions no?

Maybe a tournament format where 1 side gets to obtain a default win in a draw situation but has to play with 100 fewer points?
Hi Mike - would you be up for a few battles to test this out? I really like the idea of tournament (maybe a team one) based on this premise. My gut says it may be more like 1200-1000 points but that's why I would want to test it out. I can see different army lists being specialist attackers or defenders... seems really cool to me.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by Ludendorf »

Returning to this topic, it occurs to me that there are some armies that are almost expected to have to assault difficult terrain. Take the Galatians for example. In most of my games so far, I have been forced into attacking some kind of difficult position; in one game, it is a forest, another was a steep hill, and a third has me attacking entrenched Indian archers with supporting elephants and artillery on rough ground. The only game left where we're both fighting out in the open is a Galatians vs Romans game which is supposed to demonstrate the vulnerability warbands have to heavily armoured impact foot. No one in their right minds (except possibly the aforementioned Romans, maybe a pike-heavy army, and of course the dreaded Steppe lancers) would meet a Galatian army out in the open field. A commander with an ounce of common sense is going to position at least part of his army on the rough. I think other lists too, such as Greeks vs Persians, feature one army that is expected to entrench at least partially, and another army which is expected to attack.

One thing I've kind of ended up studying in my Galatian games is assault strategies with heavy infantry. In a lot of circumstances, and with troops that are heavy and superior enough, it can be done. It is just murderously difficult going at times.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by MikeC_81 »

DanZanzibar wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:23 am
MikeC_81 wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:10 am
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:31 pm Edit: As a further point, I think passive play partially results from the artificial setups of even points Open Battle. Historically, one side would feel more compelled to force the issue for one reason or another - they have more or better trained men, the terrain would be to their advantage, their army is running out of food/dying from disease and won't be in shape to fight soon, etc. etc. Battles between evenly matched forces would have been rare events indeed, and many of the standoffs we read about result from neither side wanting to give up that advantage.
We play even point battles because we view it is fair right? And if you get to choose the army (mostly) that you want to play with and logic would dictate that you would pick an army that you would be willing to fight with under fair conditions no?

Maybe a tournament format where 1 side gets to obtain a default win in a draw situation but has to play with 100 fewer points?
Hi Mike - would you be up for a few battles to test this out? I really like the idea of tournament (maybe a team one) based on this premise. My gut says it may be more like 1200-1000 points but that's why I would want to test it out. I can see different army lists being specialist attackers or defenders... seems really cool to me.
Sure send me a PM. 200 point deficits are close to insurmountable. Back in the early days of the game, Will Michaels ran a campaign-style tournament with attackers suffering an FP penalty. 100 was a tough chore already and potluck terrain doesn't always give great defensive positions. It is just super annoying when it does and the camper just sits on it and does nothing.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by TheGrayMouser »

MikeC_81 wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:10 am
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:31 pm Edit: As a further point, I think passive play partially results from the artificial setups of even points Open Battle. Historically, one side would feel more compelled to force the issue for one reason or another - they have more or better trained men, the terrain would be to their advantage, their army is running out of food/dying from disease and won't be in shape to fight soon, etc. etc. Battles between evenly matched forces would have been rare events indeed, and many of the standoffs we read about result from neither side wanting to give up that advantage.
We play even point battles because we view it is fair right? And if you get to choose the army (mostly) that you want to play with and logic would dictate that you would pick an army that you would be willing to fight with under fair conditions no?

Maybe a tournament format where 1 side gets to obtain a default win in a draw situation but has to play with 100 fewer points?
I suggested this for the DL many posts ago but with no point disparity. I was met with profound silence from players, and I imagine the organizers would not have interest in anything requiring more paperwork.

It seems like a large amount of players feel partial credit is needed, hence all the rules for different kinds of draws, point differences in victories etc , blah blah. I have never played any sport where the goal was to tie.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by kvnrthr »

Only kind of related but I do think this might be some reason to give option for asymmetric victory conditions. Many times in historical battles there were outside pressures that forced one side to act more aggressively than the other (e.g. need to lift a siege, new consul is arriving so you want to win before they can take credit, etc). So it's not inconceivable to have attacker and defender roles (at least, in some cases).
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by Cunningcairn »

TheGrayMouser wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:05 pm
MikeC_81 wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:10 am
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:31 pm Edit: As a further point, I think passive play partially results from the artificial setups of even points Open Battle. Historically, one side would feel more compelled to force the issue for one reason or another - they have more or better trained men, the terrain would be to their advantage, their army is running out of food/dying from disease and won't be in shape to fight soon, etc. etc. Battles between evenly matched forces would have been rare events indeed, and many of the standoffs we read about result from neither side wanting to give up that advantage.
We play even point battles because we view it is fair right? And if you get to choose the army (mostly) that you want to play with and logic would dictate that you would pick an army that you would be willing to fight with under fair conditions no?

Maybe a tournament format where 1 side gets to obtain a default win in a draw situation but has to play with 100 fewer points?
I suggested this for the DL many posts ago but with no point disparity. I was met with profound silence from players, and I imagine the organizers would not have interest in anything requiring more paperwork.

It seems like a large amount of players feel partial credit is needed, hence all the rules for different kinds of draws, point differences in victories etc , blah blah. I have never played any sport where the goal was to tie.
There are many instances where during a season teams will play for a draw against certain opponents as that will give them final victory at the end of a season. I see the DL in the same light. It is a campaign and there will definitely be times where not taking a risk and playing for a draw could give a player a top table position at the end of the season. Other instances are when a player takes heavy casualties and can no longer win a game so plays for a draw. It is what it is and is part of any competitive environment.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by Schweetness101 »

So there are a few things of course potentially meant by 'active defense'. There's the kind of active defense that ludendorf mentioned where you post up in a good defensive position, and then 'sally forth' to strike at the right moment when your opponent is manuevering, but not quite in position to attack, in order to catch them unawares. This can work really well I find especially when your position is so good, like a very steep hill, that your opponent figures you'll never abandon it, so they only send some weak units over there to stare at your hill and then you charge out unexpectedly at just the right moment and crush enoguh of their weak units to get significant numerical advantage on the whole.

There's also the kind where you use some terrain to anchor one flank, so that as few and as cheap of units as possible can hold up the better wing of the enemy army as long as possible, while you commit as many and as good of units on the other wing to attack and overwhelm the weaker enemy wing, while their stronger wing is held up by terrain (assuming you can maneuver to get that setup). Although perhaps that isn't really defense at all, but more like just how to attack intelligently.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by Schweetness101 »

pompeytheflatulent wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:53 pm I think camping is mostly a issue of tournament rules. In the Slitherine automated tournaments I rarely encounter camping, probably because even a bad loss will net you more points than a 0-0 draw.
yeah this is true, I used slitherine automated tournament points type rules for the alt mod tourney and I have not received any complaints about camping. Alt mod also adds CT malus if on back 4 tiles of your side's map edge, although I'm not sure that bit actually changed anyone's decision making.
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Re: Passive vs Active Defence

Post by Schweetness101 »

MVP7 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:24 pm Isn't the type of camping that mostly gets lambasted the one where one side moves back against the edges of the map (gaining immovable flank protection from invisible walls) and stays there for the entire battle?
yes, I think in the original fog, either fog1 or tabletop, I'm not sure, there was a cohesion test malus to units on the map edge. I actually added that into the alt mod (-1 to ct on your sides back 4 tiles) although I haven't gotten any feedback on whether it actually changed anyone's behavior.
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