Javelins & Velites

[JaM2013]

After watching the video about Bagradas battle, there were few things i found a bit strange. First - Velites were only able to throw javelins at range 1, same as Legionaries with Pilum. Yet light javelins could be thrown at 40-50 metres, or even at longer range if amentum was used(in tests ranges around 60m were achieved without much problems), where Pilum would be hardly thrown at distances longer than 25-30m.. So i think Javelinmen should definitely get range 2 for their javelins..

And another thing this time directly about Velites - they were kinda different type of skirmishers, as they actually carries relatively large Parma shield, helmet and more importantly a sword..which made them a lot more effective in close combat, than any other skirmisher unit was, as these usually had just daggers or nothing at all.. So in case for Bagradas battle, Velites should definitely have an advantage in close combat vs Carthaginian skirmishers, unless these were Iberians, who were actually equipped very similar to Roman Velites (its probably safe to assume Romans adjusted Velites based on experiences against Iberian mercenaries used by Carthaginians)

[rbodleyscott]

After watching the video about Bagradas battle, there were few things i found a bit strange. First - Velites were only able to throw javelins at range 1, same as Legionaries with Pilum. Yet light javelins could be thrown at 40-50 metres, or even at longer range if amentum was used(in tests ranges around 60m were achieved without much problems), where Pilum would be hardly thrown at distances longer than 25-30m.. So i think Javelinmen should definitely get range 2 for their javelins..

One square represents approximately 60 paces, so that is about right for javelin range. Legionaries with pila get no ranged shooting at all, the pila just get thrown as part of the Impact close combat.

And another thing this time directly about Velites - they were kinda different type of skirmishers, as they actually carries relatively large Parma shield, helmet and more importantly a sword..which made them a lot more effective in close combat, than any other skirmisher unit was, as these usually had just daggers or nothing at all.. So in case for Bagradas battle, Velites should definitely have an advantage in close combat vs Carthaginian skirmishers

They do.

[JaM2013]

Technically speaking, Ankyle would increase the range of the throw up to 50%, so while standard javelineer would throw javelin at 40-45m, with ankyle, range would increase to 60-70m. If i get it right, 60paces is about 45m, therefore range of 60-70m would definitely be range 2, or at least, these javelineers should at least be always able to throw javelins diagonally.

Ankyle or Amentum was very common in Grece and Italy, you can find a lot of ankyle portrayals in art from that era. Technologically, ankyle is just a simple leather strap attached to the javelin, therefore its not something that would be inaccessible to wide population. The whole principle of Ankyle is very similar to Atlatl, as it practically extend the "throwing arm" generating more release speed and therefore resulting in longer range.

some articles about the topic:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... lin_Thrown

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... vnbowZMx3g


http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/archiv ... 11675.html

[rbodleyscott]

these javelineers should at least be always able to throw javelins diagonally.

They can.

[JaM2013]

strange, i saw in the battle video that they were unable to throw them diagonally on multiple occasions.

[rbodleyscott]

strange, i saw in the battle video that they were unable to throw them diagonally on multiple occasions.

I can assure you that they can shoot diagonally.

What you probably saw was an old restriction on shooting diagonally between two units, which has now been removed. Agrippa was using an older version of the beta.

[Scutarii]

The diference is that in old FOG you have one hex of separation between the javelin unit and the target... but is not less true that FOG II maps are less "deep" when you deploy armies i refer that maps offer same length to form a long front (to deal with big armies) but distance between armies looks smaller... you can be in combat in a pair of turns and using non skirmish in 3 BUT at least looks like now is possible more deep deployments using chess deployment.

Anyway the video we see is a good example of how not use skirmish... many times their javelin units have retreat cut for own units... maybe is necesary made like in old FOG and give light units (not mounted) the option to retreat through heavy and medium infantry units (here use the size of units is interesting... heavy units in number of soldiers like pike units CANT give you this option but under 500 soldiers light infantry can through them and retreat).

Talking about skirmish... is in FOG II present the ability from FOG I to set the skirmish evade aptitude???

-allways evade

-evaden using AI decision for example javelin units were the stronger in melee while arches and honderos were softer and were defeated by javelin units usually... and terrain has an impact to.

-never evade

Thanks.

[rbodleyscott]

Light foot can pass through any friends - from front to back or back to front, including when evading.

Evade behaviour is determined by the unit's own officers on the spot, as represented by the AI. This is more flexible and intelligent than the FOG1 evade AI, but deliberately gives the player less (unrealistic) control. It takes into account not only the relative combat strengths of the units, but also the chance of being caught.

FOG2 is not a development of FOG1, it is a new game based on the FOG tabletop rules. Expect some things to be different from FOG1. We are confident that overall FOG2 is a massive step forward.

[Scutarii]

FOG II is going to use a diferent rule book??? something closer to tabletop game??? i am not in the non PC version... is possible upload as game preview the manual??? or do an "FOG I VS FOG II"... i remember see something similar when Tiller release Panzer Battles and compare it with Panzer Campaigns... the diferences, new features... something like this sure is wellcome.

[rbodleyscott]

FOG II is going to use a diferent rule book??? something closer to tabletop game??? i am not in the non PC version... is possible upload as game preview the manual??? or do an "FOG I VS FOG II"... i remember see something similar when Tiller release Panzer Battles and compare it with Panzer Campaigns... the diferences, new features... something like this sure is wellcome.

Like FOG1, FOG2 has many subtle differences from the tabletop rules, to better suit the computer. However, these differences are not the same as in FOG1.

The FOG2 manual is comprehensive (150 pages), and it will not be necessary to read the tabletop rules.

[JaM2013]

btw, unrelated to this topic, but any plans on including Field of View for units? so player wont see units that are behind other enemy units? Personally, i think the ability to always see everything is reducing the tactical aspects, as it was quite common to "hide" portion of troops within deeper formation and surprise enemy with overwhelming strength on particular space on battlefield.

[Scutarii]

btw, unrelated to this topic, but any plans on including Field of View for units? so player wont see units that are behind other enemy units? Personally, i think the ability to always see everything is reducing the tactical aspects, as it was quite common to "hide" portion of troops within deeper formation and surprise enemy with overwhelming strength on particular space on battlefield.

Yes, this and interesting thing, use your heavy units as screen to hide behind nasty surprises i remember use this a lot in FOG in pike based armies when i dont want show my powerfull cavalry panzer divisions and made enemy move without expect them... the problem was you need carefull move infantry to dont made enemy spot them when you leave a hole in the screen.