Current concerns about FOG2

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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Current concerns about FOG2

Post by lapdog666 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:11 pm

i have couple of concerns regarding Fog2


1.Representation of terrain/squares

1a someone mentioned that 1 square is about 60 paces, which is about 40-50 meters. i am wondering how a unit of 960 or 1000 pikemen are represented in that square. can 45m2 really have enough space for 1000 men,even if they are in 1 big block. same question for other units of about 500 men like roman legionaries

1banother question is when a unit is attacked by 3 enemy units from : Front, Diagonal Left,Diagonal Right , how is that represented in in -game engine,do units attacking that 1 unit from diagonal right commit all their men or just fraction? where do they all fit, what are the levels of abstraction and why and also how does flanking/half flanking calcuation work, if there is any in this case

1c is there any abstracted space between squares, or the units are literally considered standing 1meter from eachother


2.Graphics/animations

some units like triari look very ugly in comparison to equites and hastati/principes. the way they hold their spears and shields is strange

Pikes when in combat look very strange,they kinda don't have that ' this is phalanx' feeling, instead they look like they are pointing sticks almost in the air(against non phalanx unit,before someone brings that up)
and dancing too much left and right. current animations do not suit them. ofc its all acceptable but not pretty at all
side point: pikes seem a bit short in and out of combat

are there going to be any concrete changes to the animations/graphics. not saying the game looks ugly,its 3 leagues better than fog1 and imo more appealing than Rome TW 2 , but some things just look ugly and unfinished

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:31 pm

yeah, the scale is the most obvious issue of this game, especially when unit is upscaled for more men to accommodate more numerous army in some campaigns.. Personally, i would prefer if they stick with fixed unit sizes, and instead gave us more units in the field, as that allows for more interesting battle tactics. So while ranges might work for Cohorts (50m frontage can be achieved with 80 men per rank, and 6 ranks) It definitely doesnt work if single unit is 2000men or more.. Plus, it makes missile ranges strange, because they are still same range, but units are bigger..

Personally, my main concern with FoG2 is in ability to see through (heavy) units.. in FoG units blocked visibility, so you could only guess what enemy is doing.. here, you can easily see everything, so there is no surprises - in FoG2 there is no chance for player to fall into trap like the one done at Cannae, or Leuctra, Ilippa and many others.. you immediately spot that enemy has double depth against your flank and you would adjust immediately.. i just hope developer will implement this back, because this is way too important feature that was making FoG1 stand out from other similar games...
Last edited by JaM2013 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by lapdog666 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:35 pm

JaM2013 wrote:yeah, the scale is the most obvious issue of this game, especially when unit is upscaled for more men to accommodate more numerous army in some campaigns.. Personally, i would prefer if they stick with fixed unit sizes, and instead gave us more units in the field, as that allows for more interesting battle tactics. So while ranges might work for Cohorts (50m frontage can be achieved with 80 men per rank, and 6 ranks) It definitely doesnt work if single unit is 2000men or more.. Plus, it makes missile ranges strange, because they are still same range, but units are bigger..

Personally, my main concern with FoG2 is in ability to see through units.. in FoG units blocked visibility, so you could only guess what enemy is doing.. here, you can easily see everything, so there is no surprises - in FoG2 there is no chance for player to fall into trap like the one done at Cannae, or Leuctra, Ilippa and many others.. you immediately spot that enemy has double depth against your flank and you would adjust immediately.. i just hope developer will implement this back, because this is way too important feature that was making FoG1 stand out from other similar games...

i definatelly agree with the fog of war/ hiding of units argument. i wonder what arguments are devs offering for not having this implemented , as in why is it better not to have it than to have it

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:39 pm

Fog of war is less important if you play agaisnt AI, as it is most likely not able to apprehend these tactics, but in multiplayer, i feel there is no excuse not having it..
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by Scutarii » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:03 pm

In graphic area is clear that we dont talk about a TW title... but is not less true that we come from FOG I that uses simple painted figures... i cant say what is better but both representations for me are good on their own style.

In a game like this not all units looks the same... for example i really like the look of Hoplites-Phalanx units but are others i find a little... nude like skirmish units (not all armies have an attractive model).

But in the key area i think the 3D units are doing a good job showing the unit type, the combat status and tactical situation... even when could be improved.

The fog of war... in FOG I was introduced later after game release and introduce a new tactical world in human VS human combats... you not only deploy your army to fight... you deploy it in a way you can have a silver bullet ready to be showed when can decide a battle... or even you can made enemy think you have it and you dotn have it :mrgreen:

Any way we talk about 1.0 version, and from my experience in FOG I the diferences between 1.0 and 1.8.1 are big, very big... improvements in UI, unit changes....

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:20 pm

true, thats why my fingers are crossed!
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by Ironclad » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:45 pm

LOL a thread of concerns about a game which has not yet been released.

Personally I'm delighted with what looks to be a great replacement for the much loved original version of FOG. Its worth recalling that many significant features of that took time to be added after its initial release. One continuing weakness was its very poor AI - which obliged so many of us to revert early to its classic multiplayer mode whatever our then preferences about single player and multiplayer games. Frankly there seems to be a wealth of choice in FOG 2 with the revised campaign system being added to supplement the epic and custom battle options plus the likelihood of additional user and mod inspired scenarios. Great stuff and 12 October is nearly here!

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by devoncop » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:24 pm

Given the engine it is based on there should be no concerns at all re the competency of the AI....it is class leading in my opinion.
I also actually like the visuals in the game but such things will always be personal preference.

Issues of LOS through heavy infantry I understand but there is LOS restrictions re terrain and this is much more important in my view (excuse the pun!)

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:30 pm

devoncop wrote:Given the engine it is based on there should be no concerns at all re the competency of the AI....it is class leading in my opinion.
I also actually like the visuals in the game but such things will always be personal preference.

Issues of LOS through heavy infantry I understand but there is LOS restrictions re terrain and this is much more important in my view (excuse the pun!)

Actually, not really.. terrain didnt play that big role in ancient battles, as battlefields were usually small.. even big battles with hundreds of thousands of men were usually fought on some plain, where terrain didnt obscured that much.. I mentioned Leuctra, but other battles were same - both sides usually chose the battlefield that suited them, otherwise there would be no battle.. as side that felt to be at disadvantage, would just not accept the battle and withdraw..

(battlefield for Heraclea was 7-km wide plain for example)

Heavy infantry/cavalry obscuring whats behind them, is pretty much a basic thing - generals did not command battles from Helicopters but were restricted to only see what their men could see.. and mass of men would easily obscure whatever is behind them, as it was impossible to tell how deep formation enemy actually has, unless you had own units on flanks, or you occupied higher ground..
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:14 pm

There were exceptions to ancient battles being on flat plains. Off the top of my head - at Cynoscephalae, the two armies seemed to more or less blunder into each other. Issus and Granicus both involved significant terrain features.

Demosthenes' Aetolian Campaign, and Pylos/Sphacteria were hardly simple head to head affairs. Thermopylae was a defensive action in a fortified mountain pass. Then there is the whole Alesia campaign...

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by devoncop » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:18 pm

Battle of Teutoburg Forest ?

Most battles between Romans and Celtic tribes in Britain?

Terrain was very important there. I accept that in Egypt or Middle East more generally terrain was less crucial though even there the presence of rivers such as at Magnesia had an impact

Edit....just seen "snugglebunnies" post whilst typing mine above.....I would say "Quite so"

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:31 pm

Battle of Teutoburg forest was not really a battle in that meaning.. it was a series of ambushes against Roman marching columns.. Romans managed to fend off enemies for few days, until head of column was overwhelmed and Varus committed a suicide.. without command, legionaries tried to fight, but were wiped out..

Anyway, my point is purely towards human vs human gameplay - you wont be able to use your reserves properly, because your enemy will see your intent instantly so you never achieve local superiority unless he is a rookie who dont know how to play the game... with line of sight, it would be completely different experience..
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:14 pm

lapdog666 wrote:i have couple of concerns regarding Fog2


1.Representation of terrain/squares

1a someone mentioned that 1 square is about 60 paces, which is about 40-50 meters. i am wondering how a unit of 960 or 1000 pikemen are represented in that square
They are 16 ranks deep, so that is 1 pace per man. This was the most usual fighting formation for the pike phalanx (pycne).
1c is there any abstracted space between squares
Yes
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by 76mm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:36 pm

I hope that this LoS issue is fixed, because so far--not having seen the game yet--I don't understand the reason for inclusion of this feature...

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:22 am

another minor one - seems like most of historical battles in FoG2 that i saw so far on youtube has very strange Roman deployment... just recently, i saw a battle where Romans are deployed in 6 lines... they never used more than 3 lines, as everything deeper would be just a waste of frontage.. its quite far from Historical, when battle uses non-historical deployment..
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by devoncop » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:20 am

So your concern is that when a player chooses a "non historical deployment"....The AI chooses to deploy in a non historical way???????........... yeah ok :-)

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:26 am

no, its preset deployment - battle of Bagradas.. Romans are in 6 lines instead of three..

while in reality they were in three, but maniples were one behind another, instead of next to each other:

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anyway, this player is probably the biggest moron i ever saw.. its beyond me why would authors give him key to bash this game like that.. he doesnt even understands base principles of turn based strategy games..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHmo9_MG10A
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by devoncop » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:31 am

I get the difference but gameplay wise it will have little effect I suspect.

I agree on the You tuber. I managed 2 mins before quitting.....horrendous.

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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by JaM2013 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:35 am

it doesnt fit even scale wise... these units on picture above are maniples of 120men.. while in game smallest unit is cohort, which is composed of 4 maniples (60x8).. so even if single unit would be half-strength cohort, then it is still just 3 lines of heavy infantry. I think it is something that should be fixed at some point, as this should be a historical battle represenation..
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Re: Current concerns about FOG2

Post by Bombax » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:15 am

Ironclad wrote:LOL a thread of concerns about a game which has not yet been released.

Personally I'm delighted with what looks to be a great replacement for the much loved original version of FOG. Its worth recalling that many significant features of that took time to be added after its initial release. One continuing weakness was its very poor AI - which obliged so many of us to revert early to its classic multiplayer mode whatever our then preferences about single player and multiplayer games. Frankly there seems to be a wealth of choice in FOG 2 with the revised campaign system being added to supplement the epic and custom battle options plus the likelihood of additional user and mod inspired scenarios. Great stuff and 12 October is nearly here!
Plus one!
This thread does seem a bit surreal to me... Why not wait till the game is released (any day now) and see what it's like in practice?
RBS and his team have been brilliant IMHO at engaging with the gaming community and implementing suggestions where appropriate.
Chill out guys! :lol:

Cheers,
Bombax.

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