Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced Game?

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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Lancier
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Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced Game?

Post by Lancier » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:08 am

Hello.
Wonder if as long as we choose "same Force Size" for both sides for a MULTIPLAYER Custom - Random Map Open Battle, would games be fair and balanced for both players?

I saw some choices for tournaments like:
*Rome 199-106 v Seleucid 205-167
*Pontic 110-85 v Rome 105-25
*Carthage 235-146 v Gallic 300-101
for example...

So is there a specific criteria for these selections or random they are ?
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rbodleyscott
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:22 pm

In some matchups it is very hard for one side to win because the troop types in their army give them a disadvantage.

This is mainly the armies which large numbers of "Medium Foot" javelinmen and no better infantry at all. It is possible to win with them but it takes a lot of skill as they are individually very weak compared with most other infantry types.

Arguably they may be slightly over-costed, but as their main tactic is already to swarm the enemy, making them cheaper may not be a good thing.

One suggestion is to allow such armies slightly more points, although the current system only allows 100 point steps.

I am currently playing as Armenian in a campaign, and managed to lose against an Indian army despite having 1200 points vs their 1000. This was partly due to the terrain, which affected my cataphracts more than it affected the enemy - essentially I ran out of units to attack that were in open terrain. Whereas their elephants were able to hunt down and destroy my cataphracts.
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Lancier
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by Lancier » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:53 pm

Ah i see Scott.
So if we ask for a little favor? A simple 2 (OR 3 better maybe?) category for the current armies based on their unit variety and power? for custom MP battles so meetings can be more fair for us the new starters? is that too much to ask?

I think 30 new army on way too with the coming expansion (Immortal Fire)? would be great if we could add them afterward to that category list too.
FOG2 Army Lists – Rise of Rome (Alphabetically)

Ancient British 60 BC - 80 AD
Apulian 420-203 BC
Arab 312 BC - 476 AD
Armenian 331 BC - 252 AD
Armenian (Tigranes) 83-69 BC
Atropatene 320-145 BC
Atropatene 144 BC - 226 AD
Bithynian 297-74 BC
Bosporan 348-85 BC
Bosporan 84-11 BC
Bruttian or Lucanian 420-203 BC
Campanian 280-203 BC
Carthaginian 280-263 BC
Carthaginian 262-236 BC
Carthaginian 235-146BC
Carthaginian (Hannibal in Italy) 218-217 BC
Carthaginian (Hannibal in Italy) 216-203 BC
Carthaginian (Hannibal in Africa) 202 BC
Caucasian 320 BC - 476 AD
Dacian 50 BC - 106 AD
Galatian 280-63 BC
Galatian 63-25 BC
Gallic 300-101 BC
Gallic 100-50 BC
Germanic Foot Tribes 105 BC - 259 AD
Graeco-Bactrian 250-130 BC
Greek 280-228 BC
Greek 227-146 BC
Greek (Western) 280-49 BC
Iberian or Colchian 331 BC - 252 AD
Illyrian 350 BC - 25 AD
Indian 500 BC - 319 AD
Indo-Greek 175 BC - 10 AD
Indo-Parthian 60 BC - 130 AD
Indo-Skythian 95 BC - 50 AD
Italian Hill Tribes 490-275 BC
Jewish 167-64 BC
Jewish 64 BC - 6 AD
Kappadokian 260 BC - 17 AD
Kushan 130 BC - 476 AD
Libyan 220 BC - 70 AD
Ligurian 480-145 BC
Macedonian 320-261 BC
Macedonian 260-148 BC
Mountain Indian 492-170 BC
Nabataean 260 BC - 106 AD
Numidian or Moorish 220-56 BC
Numidian or Moorish 55 BC - 6 AD
Parthian 250 BC - 225 AD
Pergamene 262-191 BC
Pergamene 190-129 BC
Pontic 281-111 BC
Pontic 110-85 BC
Pontic 84-47 BC
Ptolemaic 320-167 BC
Ptolemaic 166-56 BC
Ptolemaic 55-30 BC
Pyrrhic 280-272 BC
Rhoxolani 350 BC - 24 AD
Roman 280-220 BC
Roman 219-200 BC
Roman 199-106 BC
Roman 105-25 BC
Saka 300 BC - 50 AD
Samnite 355-272 BC
Sarmatian 350 BC - 24 AD
Scots-Irish 50 BC - 476 AD
Seleucid 320-206 BC
Seleucid 205-167 BC
Seleucid 166-125 BC
Seleucid 124-63 BC
Skythian 300 BC - 50 AD
Slave Revolt 73-71 BC
Spanish 300-10 BC
Spanish (Sertorius) 80-70 BC
Syracusan 280-211 BC
Thracian 350 BC - 46 AD
Umbrian 490-260 BC
30 new army lists

- Achaemenid Persian 550-546 BC
- Achaemenid Persian 545-481 BC
- Achaemenid Persian 480-461 BC
- Achaemenid Persian 460-420 BC
- Achaemenid Persian 419-329 BC
- Antigonid 320-301 BC
- Carthaginian 490-411 BC
- Carthaginian 410-341 BC
- Carthaginian 340-281 BC
- Etruscan 490-331 BC
- Etruscan 330-280 BC
- Gallic 390-301 BC
- Greek 550-461 BC
- Greek 460-281 BC
- Kyrenean Greek 550-461 BC
- Kyrenean Greek 460-322 BC
- Latin 490-338 BC
- Lydian 550-546 BC
- Lysimachid 320-281 BC
- Macedonian 355-329 BC (Philip and Alexander)
- Macedonian 328-321 BC (Alexander and first phase of the wars of the Diadochi)
- Roman 490-341 BC
- Roman 340-281 BC
- Seleucid 320-303 BC
- Seleucid 302-301 BC
- Skythian or Saka 550-301 BC
- Spartan 550-461 BC
- Spartan 460-281 BC
- Syracusan 421-281 BC
- Thessalian 404-353BC
Vive L'Empereur!
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rbodleyscott
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:06 pm

We would first have to agree what category the armies should go in.

Why don't you start a thread asking the more experienced players to rate them on a 1,2,3 basis.
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76mm
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by 76mm » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:12 pm

Instead of the previous idea, couldn't you just publish aggregate MP results between particular nations, and maybe separately epic battles? For instance: Magnesia: 15 [Roman] / 6 [Sel] (or whatever]. You must have the data on the MP server, and if it is aggregated, I wouldn't see the problem releasing the results. Frankly several of the matchups I've played don't seem particularly balanced, at least in open terrain, and I'd prefer to avoid more like that in the future.

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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:32 pm

76mm wrote:Instead of the previous idea, couldn't you just publish aggregate MP results between particular nations, and maybe separately epic battles? For instance: Magnesia: 15 [Roman] / 6 [Sel] (or whatever]. You must have the data on the MP server, and if it is aggregated, I wouldn't see the problem releasing the results. Frankly several of the matchups I've played don't seem particularly balanced, at least in open terrain, and I'd prefer to avoid more like that in the future.
The server does not really know what armies were involved. That data is not held on the server in an analysable form.
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by 76mm » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:49 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:The server does not really know what armies were involved. That data is not held on the server in an analysable form.
That's too bad; I wish information about good match ups were more readily available.

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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by MikeC_81 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:31 am

I don't know if I am an "experienced" player but having played all the single player campaigns, bundles of solitaire custom battles, and completed 25 multiplayer games under my belt, I would highly recommend that any newer player start with and play a lot of the late Roman list (105-25) before working their way back to the early Roman list and branching out to some of the diadochi lists and/or close order Warband heavy lists. Stay away from armies which use medium foot (especially javelinmen) to form the core of the foot army and stay away from cavalry archer lists like the Scythians.

The Late Roman list is just disgustingly versatile against almost all comers except cavalry archer armies. At 1200 FP, they have access to a very sturdy core of the best infantry unit in the game, access to very good 6 medium foot units to contest any rough ground, another 2 javelinmen on rough heavy maps and just enough cavalry to keep the mounted wing of the enemy army honest unless its cavalry based army. Impact Foot combo'd with superior status is a disgustingly good set of keywords on a unit. This army requires the least amount of thinking to do well and has enough flexibility in unit picks to handle most terrain setups. Its core units are sturdy and forgiving of mistakes. Most likely always outnumbered in terms of total number of units on the field but the onus is always on the other guy to find a way to not get skewered by Roman Legionaries.

The earlier Roman lists while cheaper, lose a bit of punch and and take a hit in the reliability department, with fewer high quality medium foot option, and some come with alarmingly low counts of cavalry. But they are still have the Impact foot boogeyman to fall back on.

Macedonian (320-261) is a favorite of mine after having first played it in the tournament. Can be tuned to fight against other infantry armies in open ground with lots of pikes and hoplites, has access to a lot of good medium foot for any kind of rough ground, a reasonably solid cavalry arm with access to a mix of lancers, regular cavalry and elephants. Another army that has great playability across a ton of map types and can be tuned to whatever your needs are.

Gallic (300-100) is a good option for barbarian lovers. Has access to both close and loose order Warbands (yay Impact foot for everyone!) a passable cavalry arm and you get light chariots for extra fun times.

All of these armies have solid cores with access to either Pikes or Impact foot and are not lacking in support options. So a newer player will be less likely to be stuck in an awkward situation where they can't field troops appropriate to the terrain and have to get creative, or have little to no access to hard hitting troops and have to get creative in another way.

A list like Carthaginian (262-236) is a solid list with good variety but lack the "fire and forget" ease of use that Impact foot brings to the table and the player has to juggle a bit more to deal with variance.

Avoid at all costs stuff like Atropatene (320-145) which must form the bulk of its army using Javelinmen and only have regular cavalry (albeit high quality) to help. If you don't know exactly what is going on, how to maximize the use of your light troops its is going to be a spanking. That is the stuff for experts to show off and requires in depth game knowledge and a great deal of foresight in terms of reading how a battle is going to flow.

Horse archer armies like Rhoxolani (350-25AD) are a ton of fun for you (not the other guy) but its probably best to play the infantry heavy stuff first and experiencing the annoying joy of chasing down evasive cavalry before trying it yourself since it does require some understanding of movement limits and how evasion works.

Note that this isn't a tier list in terms of power, just my opinion on the skill level required get various armies "off the ground" so to speak and get competent results. Just from playing the first tournament, and a couple of player run tournaments, I have noticed most of the mistakes I make and the ones I see my opponents make are in the usage more numerous cheaper but less reliable troops and the sometimes the razor thin timing required to counter the expensive but powerful heavy foot armies mentioned above. A good player will still wreck a new player but I'd say some armies are easier to play than others.
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by Lancier » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:26 am

Thanks Mike...
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Lancier
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by Lancier » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:47 pm

Game has no mercy for the loser side then?lol You are happy you have a close-fought during the game (say routs playerA: %50 to PlayerB: %55) then battle ends when player B reaches %60 then there is a huge difference between numbers at the result screen: %27 to %63!? haa... So winner side routed troops technically "return" upon winning the battle? :wink:
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rbodleyscott
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:33 pm

Lancier wrote:Game has no mercy for the loser side then?lol You are happy you have a close-fought during the game (say routs playerA: %50 to PlayerB: %55) then battle ends when player B reaches %60 then there is a huge difference between numbers at the result screen: %27 to %63!? haa... So winner side routed troops technically "return" upon winning the battle? :wink:
Yes, as they would historically. They would also save a higher proportion of their wounded. The losers would have additional men cut down in the pursuit or deserting.
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Lancier
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Re: Multiplayer - Custom Random Map Open Battle - Balanced G

Post by Lancier » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:03 pm

Yes, i will live with these screens, thanks anyway fair enough.
rbodleyscott wrote: Yes, as they would historically. They would also save a higher proportion of their wounded. The losers would have additional men cut down in the pursuit or deserting.
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