Fatigue System

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
TheSkirmishLord
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Fatigue System

Post by TheSkirmishLord »

I can't find the post but I remember a discussion on having a fatigue system for the units. As they move or fight they would go from something like "Fresh" to "Exhausted" with a deterioration in both as the fatigue level got worse.

I think this first came up because some users were tired of endless evasions by cavalry and skirmishers.

I think the change may annoy as many people as it pleases.

I there a plan to implement this?

If so, would this be an option that could be turned on or off?
rbodleyscott
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by rbodleyscott »

TheSkirmishLord wrote:I can't find the post but I remember a discussion on having a fatigue system for the units. As they move or fight they would go from something like "Fresh" to "Exhausted" with a deterioration in both as the fatigue level got worse.

I think this first came up because some users were tired of endless evasions by cavalry and skirmishers.

I think the change may annoy as many people as it pleases.

Is there a plan to implement this?
Paradoxically fatigue rules actually favour the skirmishing army, because it would not be realistic to give fatigue for evading and not give fatigue for charging. Fatigue rules ruined the balance of Wargames Research Group 7th Edition rules - we try to learn from the lessons of past failed designs.
If so, would this be an option that could be turned on or off?
We are trying to avoid optional rules because of the complications they would cause for MP.

Of course there is nothing to stop anyone who wants the rules to be different from creating a mod that does what they want.
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stockwellpete
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by stockwellpete »

Maybe one way to represent "fatigue" would be to link it to losses so that a unit got a -1 modifier (impact, melee, shooting and rally rolls) for fatigue if its losses went over, say, one-third. It would effect all units in the same way. I expect that there is a very good reason why this would be a bad idea but I cannot think of it myself. :?
Ludendorf
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by Ludendorf »

I thought units already got cohesion modifiers if they were below a certain % of their original numbers?
rbodleyscott
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by rbodleyscott »

stockwellpete wrote:Maybe one way to represent "fatigue" would be to link it to losses so that a unit got a -1 modifier (impact, melee, shooting and rally rolls) for fatigue if its losses went over, say, one-third. It would effect all units in the same way. I expect that there is a very good reason why this would be a bad idea but I cannot think of it myself. :?
Well losses are already taken into account in all of the above except but impact.
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stockwellpete
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by stockwellpete »

rbodleyscott wrote:
stockwellpete wrote:Maybe one way to represent "fatigue" would be to link it to losses so that a unit got a -1 modifier (impact, melee, shooting and rally rolls) for fatigue if its losses went over, say, one-third. It would effect all units in the same way. I expect that there is a very good reason why this would be a bad idea but I cannot think of it myself. :?
Well losses are already taken into account in all of the above except but impact.
Yes, I meant on top of what we have already, but perhaps that would be too much. I suppose you could add an additional fatigue modifier just for impact?
Delbruck
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by Delbruck »

It does seem a little funny that troops can run out of ammo, but lancers and impact foot have unlimited charges.
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by lapdog666 »

Delbruck wrote:It does seem a little funny that troops can run out of ammo, but lancers and impact foot have unlimited charges.
their answer will always be 'abstraction" and "gameplay"

even tho that is true to some degree, still its borderline simply an excuse for not having more realistic system
TheGrayMouser
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by TheGrayMouser »

Fatigue arguably is already inherent in the system: the auto rout level

Also, what do people think fatigue would actually represent in game? There really only two options here: A) the actual physical state of being winded B) some sort of accumulated battle fatigue ( ie mental)
I tend to think B is really not something that would come into play in the majority of A&M battles, and the rapid loss of moral/panic from immediate danger is already in the game ( ie disrupt, frag, rout).
Plus, how are you going to qualify it?

This leave A and although there is an argument for cavalry ( the horsies) I suppose, they are fragile and weak enough as is in the game, by the time you turn a flank etc, your cavalry units are pretty banged up, any more penalties they will be useless. As for infantry, since only the front rank or maybe two are exerting themeslves, and the men likely, somehow, rotated during lulls, how much "exhaustion" would be measurable?. Im no spring chicken, but I can still sprint at full effort a 1/4 mile, "rest" while jogging around the track and repeat more times for a workout. Presumebly I could keep that up in a life and death situation longer versus for fun :).
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by Archaeologist1970 »

Fatigue and cohesion in this game are my least like attributes. Units should just not be able to charge round after round and keep cohesion. Cavalry as well should not be able to just keep charging and charging. Men and horse get tired, especially when wearing armor. I have recently done this in real life for the first time. I can't imagine having to sprint 100 yards in full kit. Engage the enemy and when they fall back, keep charging them.
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by rbodleyscott »

The problem with explicit fatigue systems is that there is a big danger of over-representing the effect of fatigue.

At the Battle of Cannae, for example, Hannibal's left wing cavalry defeated the Roman right wing cavalry, rode all the way round behind the Roman army and defeated their left wing cavalry, then rode back and charged the Roman infantry in the rear. I daresay they were quite tired at the end of all that, but fatigue did not stop them from doing it.
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jomni
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by jomni »

Fatigue would be more important in the operational layer like in Ageod games.
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by sIg3b »

I hope it´s ok to revive this. I think this is a classic case of Gameplay vs. Realism:

1. For Gameplay I daresay the rules are great as they are. Fatigue might play havoc with the balance.
2. From the viewpoint of Realism one *important* reason for reserves is lacking: They are entirely fresh while everyone else is tired. With Fatigue, I would use at least 2x as many reserves.
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by FightingPoultry »

rbodleyscott wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:18 am The problem with explicit fatigue systems is that there is a big danger of over-representing the effect of fatigue.

At the Battle of Cannae, for example, Hannibal's left wing cavalry defeated the Roman right wing cavalry, rode all the way round behind the Roman army and defeated their left wing cavalry, then rode back and charged the Roman infantry in the rear. I daresay they were quite tired at the end of all that, but fatigue did not stop them from doing it.
Fatigue did not stop them because they had been well husbanded. Horses get knackered very rapidly if they are not utilized efficiently, to cite your example- did Hannibal's left flank full gallop all the way round to the Roman right flank immediately after defeating their left flank opponents ( a not inconsiderable distance considering the area taken up by the vast roman army)? I would wager they would have trotted or cantered to preserve their stamina as much as possible, Masinna's numidians were pefectly adept at skirmishing the L flank roman cavalry indefinitely and Hannibal had set his infantry up to give ground slowly, so time was on their side. There is no way Hannibals horse could have done all that if they had been operating at number 11 on the dial for the entire battle.

A good example of cavalry being rapidly spent comes from a different time period, namely Lord Uxbridge's impetuous charge of the Union Brigade( Heavy Cavalry) at Waterloo, which got so carried away they that they made a number of charges in rapid succession. these antics left the Brigade so exhausted, that they were easily overtaken by counterattacking french horse as they tried to return to Wellingtons lines and were badly mauled.
To quote an online source i read :
The Duke of Wellington was never pleased with his cavalry. In Spain he condemned them for “charging at everything”, getting cut up in the process or finding themselves on a distant part of the battlefield, horses blown, at the very moment they were needed elsewhere:

I think unlimited cavalry charges in FOGW2 is a bit too much - perhaps a cohesion check should be made for every charge a cav unit makes after the first = with an ever increasing probability of cohesion loss to simulate gradual exhaustion of an over worked unit.


just my ha'penneth - love the game :)
melm
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by melm »

I regard it as animation visual effect led misunderstanding. People see the horses are running in the game then automatically thinking they should get tired. But what if actually they just walk? It still faster than foot I believe. If the game could distinguish "trot", "full speed" and "charge speed" animation, players may not have same image in their mind. Horses may not get winded if their maneuver speed is "trot". Only running at full speed for a while may they get fatigued. Charging may be a different story. If you play Total War, you may read one tip saying "don't charge from far". In TW game, if you choose wedge formation for charge, horses will keep low speed to close the enemy to preserve their impetus. When close enough, they speed up. So in FOGII scale, charging distance should be well below one tile distance(Plus, the rule in manual stating the unvisualized "counter-charge" design logic also confirms the charge distance can be low). As the charging distance is not long, their impetus will be back in short time. Then they can charge again.

Thus, I can't think of any situation that unit should get tired. Horses trot, human walk, charge close, melee shift as two ranks of models involved, However, if we indeed want to model the fatigue and make it meaningful, I suggest that we can give one tile more movement range for foot and two tiles more for the horses as they are ordered by the player to move at double speed. Of course, in this situation, they should get tired. These tired units can still fight but in the combat they will get -1 cohesion. If they rest for one turn without any combat, their fatigue attribute will be lifted. If they still want to move, regular walk distance will be cut in half. And after the turn they will be rested. If they still want to run, the movement distance will be the halved regular distance plus bonus one or two but if they in combat they get -2 cohesion.

For shooting, fatigued unit should have half effective shooting. Still running for a turn? Then half again. :D
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Ludendorf
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by Ludendorf »

There's also the fact that battles take place over the best part of an entire day sometimes. Repeated cavalry charges within an hour would be very taxing, yes. Two cavalry charges over the course of a battle? One to drive off the other side's cavalry and the other delivered to the flanks/rear of an army late in the day? Not implausible at all.
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by Benedict151 »

Sorry typing this in a hurry (before I am made to go out!) as I think so a bit waffly...

FWIW I think fatigue is important and having it in the game would I suspect lead to more use of reserves. Having said that to what extent many ancient and medieval armies used reserves is perhaps moot (or it maybe the sources simply are not explicit enough). The Successor armies, allegedly the pinnacle of the Hellenistic military art generally seemed to deploy in a single line (maybe with general's bodyguard in reserve), turning (or protecting) flanks seems to have been more important then depth. However maybe formations such as Alexander's at Gaugamela effectively meant the Companions were in reserve and the Romans of course deployed in depth.
As things stand in FoG2 as others have noted as things stand a couple of fresh units committed to the battle at the right time/place can have a disproportionately high effect if they hit units that have already been involved in several combats so for me the effect of "reserves" is already kinda there without explicit fatigue rules. Also, whilst ancient/medieval battles could last a long time my gut feeling/memory is that they were mostly fairly short (and the alleged length of some battles might have been more down to poetic licence).

I've played a number of miniatures games that included fatigue was well as losses and I'm hard pushed to think of one that really did it well, although with PC's handling bookkeeping etc. (and more or less removing arguments over what the rules actually mean!) it would probably be easier to implement for 'digital games'.
For arguments sake I'd probably give something like a 'fatigue point' to a unit for each charge, evade (evades are kinda covered from a fatigue point of view now in FoG2 thanks to the introduction of losses suffered each time) round of melee, turn of pursuit and rout. Reach 'x' points an unit "effectiveness" is reduced by 'z' amount.

All in all a fatigue system could be applied to FoG2, whether the game needs the extra complexity either from a playability or historical point of view seems rather more moot. If one more thing was to be introduced I'd much rather have uncontrolled charges (or anarchy charges as some call them I think) than fatigue, especially if the game goes medieval …
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Ben
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by TheGrayMouser »

per Frederick the Great’ instructions ( once he had time to improve his Cavalry arm) was that they attack the enemy at a trot for 4000 yards, go to gallop for 1800 yards, and go “top speed” for the last 300 to 400 yards. This is over three miles , likely well under the # of grids cavalry maneuver and what they represent (50- 75 yards) in your average game.
I’m an not aware of ancients beginning Cavalry assaults from so far out , but they didn’t have to contend with artillery either....
I’ll concede that mounted horses pre horshoe couldn’t traverse terrain as fast or recklessly.

I believe the true limitations of Calvary from “exhaustion” would have been the shape they are in prior to the start of battle, and thus not really part of the game.
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by rbodleyscott »

TheGrayMouser wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:01 pmI believe the true limitations of Calvary from “exhaustion” would have been the shape they are in prior to the start of battle, and thus not really part of the game.
Very very true.
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Re: Fatigue System

Post by stockwellpete »

Benedict151 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:38 pm All in all a fatigue system could be applied to FoG2, whether the game needs the extra complexity either from a playability or historical point of view seems rather more moot. If one more thing was to be introduced I'd much rather have uncontrolled charges (or anarchy charges as some call them I think) than fatigue, especially if the game goes medieval …
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Ben
I think your idea of how fatigue might work is interesting and I definitely agree with you about "anarchy charges". If you put these two ideas with a number of ideas discussed in the "3 things I don't like about gameplay" thread (such as modified rally rules, modified cavalry pursuits concerning ZOC's, modified flank attacks, modified victory conditions and increased effectiveness for pursuing cavalry) then you have the beginnings of a really interesting menu for an optional pre-battle tick-box feature. Whether this is possible, or desirable as far as some players are concerned, I am not sure. But if it was, it would really enhance the re-playability of the game.
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