Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by TDefender » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:01 am

Something like, for example , a support bonus for second line infantry as in FoG ? :cry:

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:27 pm

It is certainly something we could consider adding. We did not do so already because we felt that there were already enough benefits from reserve units not to need a specific support bonus.

It is also worth noting that the title of this thread is misleading. We have introduced lots of "real new gameplay features" since the game was released. The fact that we choose to give these features away free to all (instead of locking them behind DLC purchases) ought to be a cause for a pat on the back, IMO, rather than being treated as if we have not added any new game features!
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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by MVP7 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm

How would the second line support work exactly, does that mean that having two units back to back would benefit the first one in battle?

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:05 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm
How would the second line support work exactly, does that mean that having two units back to back would benefit the first one in battle?
Normally the rear support unit would need to be facing in the same general direction as the supported unit.
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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by MVP7 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:21 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:05 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm
How would the second line support work exactly, does that mean that having two units back to back would benefit the first one in battle?
Normally the rear support unit would need to be facing in the same general direction as the supported unit.
How does that practically work? The second line, or more accurately the 9th to 16th lines (or something like that), probably wouldn't actively contribute to the fighting. If the first few lines are getting cut to shreds I don't see how knowing that you have 13 rather than 5 more layers of men behind your back would improve the performance and morale of someone in the third line.

Second line already prevents push-backs which seems like a very useful bonus and models what physical benefit could be gained from deep formation.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:00 pm

As far as I am concerned it would only be a Cohesion test modifier, and the units would not need to be in contact.

It would be to represent the morale benefits of a supporting line, not extra-deep formations.

Anyway, it is only something to think about at this stage.
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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by TDefender » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:51 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:27 pm
It is certainly something we could consider adding. We did not do so already because we felt that there were already enough benefits from reserve units not to need a specific support bonus.
Thanks a lot for reply and giving me some hope, in my humble opinion this is a serious gap from FoG I. Looking forward for it (in any form you will find the best for the gameplay)

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:11 pm

I don't think this is a good idea unless other, separate balance work is done. As things are, armies that consist of many cheap units are advantaged against those that rely on expensive, larger units (warbands, phalanxes). Simply having reserves behind, whether to prevent pushbacks or flank enemies pushing through, is already highly effective. A unit of 30pt Raw Legionaries can crush a 70pt phalanx unit, if the phalanx gets flank attacked as it pushes through the line. Another bonus for reserves will force a reconsideration of the point costs of deep units, IMO.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by 76mm » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:38 pm

I'm also not seeing the justification for further benefits for having a second line.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by TDefender » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:27 pm

The morale/cohesion bonus should be give only once if at least one heavy/medium infantry (not skirmishers or light infantry) is behind another unit. It seems to me quite reasonable and I can assure you it works very well in FoG 1 multiplayer games , encouraging players to adopt historical behaviours and army movements.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by MVP7 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:34 pm

TDefender wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:27 pm
The morale/cohesion bonus should be give only once if at least one heavy/medium infantry (not skirmishers or light infantry) is behind another unit. It seems to me quite reasonable and I can assure you it works very well in FoG 1 multiplayer games , encouraging players to adopt historical behaviours and army movements.
It's already worth it to keep second line reserves otherwise it's pretty much guaranteed that exploitable gaps will form in your line as the melee starts and you will be unable to effectively exploit the gaps that form in the enemy line.

I'm also not convinced that having more men behind the first unit would somehow encourage and motivate the first rows significantly beyond the current depth of the units. You can already prevent push backs with second line units which I think definitely models whatever benefit may be gained from additional rows in the rear of the formation beyond reserves. I think there's also plenty of implied depth in formations using the standard force size and anything beyond that would provide extremely diminished returns.

Furthermore, even if there are a lot of historical examples of deep army formations they haven't inherently worked that great. In battle of Cannae the extremely deep Roman formation resulted in superior Roman army getting destroyed by the smaller Carthaginian army. In the Battle of Thermopylae relative depths did very little for the Persians as the fighting only really happens in the first few ranks. Warband style armies often used a deep wedge formation because it was easy to maneuver with the leading best armed men in the front and the rest following behind, it was the best they could manage rather than optimal solution. In battle of Watling street the depth of the Briton force only packed them into an tight ineffective mess that the Romans defeated with ease.

I just don't see how some seemingly artificial additional performance bonus for second line would be justified. The main driving factor of deep formations seems to be the ease, convenience and convention, rather than superior performance when compared to wider formations. FoG2 doesn't really model the overall organization and command capabilities of the armies on a level that might naturally drive the player into using deeper formation and more simplistic tactics.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by Dux Limitis » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:23 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:05 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm
How would the second line support work exactly, does that mean that having two units back to back would benefit the first one in battle?
Normally the rear support unit would need to be facing in the same general direction as the supported unit.
I have problems in game,when in battle I deploy the archer units on the second line,behind the infantry(first line),but they can not shoot the enemy in this position,why?And,I know the missile units can't shoot the enemy who in the close combat,but I move the missile units to their flank and rear,they still can't shoot the enemy who in close combat,even there's not any friendly unit between of them,that's really can't be understand.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:31 am

Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:23 am
I have problems in game,when in battle I deploy the archer units on the second line,behind the infantry(first line),but they can not shoot the enemy in this position,why?
They can if they are on higher ground.

Historically, large bodies of archers did not shoot over other units on level ground. (Sometimes one or two ranks of archers were added at the back of infantry lines, but not the equivalent of whole units of archers). This is thought to be due to the difficulties of fire control from such a position.
And,I know the missile units can't shoot the enemy who in the close combat,but I move the missile units to their flank and rear,they still can't shoot the enemy who in close combat,even there's not any friendly unit between of them,that's really can't be understand.
In historical battle accounts, once the battle lines were joined in close combat, the skirmishers are not usually mentioned again - their role was essentially over.

So while what you suggest might sound theoretically feasible, in practice it would make the game less realistic overall.
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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by Dux Limitis » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:37 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:31 am
Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:23 am
I have problems in game,when in battle I deploy the archer units on the second line,behind the infantry(first line),but they can not shoot the enemy in this position,why?
They can if they are on higher ground.

Historically, large bodies of archers did not shoot over other units on level ground. (Sometimes one or two ranks of archers were added at the back of infantry lines, but not the equivalent of whole units of archers). This is thought to be due to the difficulties of fire control from such a position.
And,I know the missile units can't shoot the enemy who in the close combat,but I move the missile units to their flank and rear,they still can't shoot the enemy who in close combat,even there's not any friendly unit between of them,that's really can't be understand.
In historical battle accounts, once the battle lines were joined in close combat, the skirmishers are not usually mentioned again - their role was essentially over.

So while what you suggest might sound theoretically feasible, in practice it would make the game less realistic overall.
But it's absurd.when I practice this in game,use missile units maneuvering to the rear of the enemy who in close combat then find they can't shoot them,that's really makes me feel strange and laughy when this happened....hope you can change your mind to fix this.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by Tamas » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:22 pm

Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:37 am
rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:31 am
Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:23 am
And,I know the missile units can't shoot the enemy who in the close combat,but I move the missile units to their flank and rear,they still can't shoot the enemy who in close combat,even there's not any friendly unit between of them,that's really can't be understand.
In historical battle accounts, once the battle lines were joined in close combat, the skirmishers are not usually mentioned again - their role was essentially over.

So while what you suggest might sound theoretically feasible, in practice it would make the game less realistic overall.
But it's absurd.when I practice this in game,use missile units maneuvering to the rear of the enemy who in close combat then find they can't shoot them,that's really makes me feel strange and laughy when this happened....hope you can change your mind to fix this.
The skirmishers work the way they do to reflect historical realities. As far as I am aware the problems with skirmishers shooting projectiles into melees were not solved by maneuvering entire skirmisher formations into the rear of the enemy, or at least I can't remember ever reading about such a thing.

One could already argue that perhaps skirmisher units are more resilient as a unit than they should be. They certainly do not need abilities they lacked in real life.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by Dux Limitis » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:09 pm

Tamas wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:22 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:37 am
rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:31 am


In historical battle accounts, once the battle lines were joined in close combat, the skirmishers are not usually mentioned again - their role was essentially over.

So while what you suggest might sound theoretically feasible, in practice it would make the game less realistic overall.
But it's absurd.when I practice this in game,use missile units maneuvering to the rear of the enemy who in close combat then find they can't shoot them,that's really makes me feel strange and laughy when this happened....hope you can change your mind to fix this.
The skirmishers work the way they do to reflect historical realities. As far as I am aware the problems with skirmishers shooting projectiles into melees were not solved by maneuvering entire skirmisher formations into the rear of the enemy, or at least I can't remember ever reading about such a thing.

One could already argue that perhaps skirmisher units are more resilient as a unit than they should be. They certainly do not need abilities they lacked in real life.
You should give players more tactical choices,right?

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:19 pm

Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:09 pm
Tamas wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:22 pm
The skirmishers work the way they do to reflect historical realities. As far as I am aware the problems with skirmishers shooting projectiles into melees were not solved by maneuvering entire skirmisher formations into the rear of the enemy, or at least I can't remember ever reading about such a thing.

One could already argue that perhaps skirmisher units are more resilient as a unit than they should be. They certainly do not need abilities they lacked in real life.
You should give players more tactical choices,right?

Not if they aren't historical, no.
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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by Witan » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:32 pm

Not if they aren't historical, no.
I'm totally with you on this one!

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:50 pm

As above, choices should be available if they were actually available at the time. Even if they were, were they used often enough to warrant inclusion in all battles in the game?

For example, the much requested testudo formation is not included in the game. Now, it's likely that it was used in a few battles here and there, but in general, it was a siege formation. The Romans were not marching into every battle in testudo. Furthermore, what would the addition of such a formation add to the game? It would make for ahistorical tactics that make the powerful Roman armies even more powerful than they already are.

As for light troops firing into melee - sure, this probably happened sometimes. But overall, it seems from accounts of battle that the lights scattered out of the way when the real fighting began. Allowing players to fire into melee would require coding friendly fire. Remember the scene from "Braveheart" when Evil English Edward orders his archers to fire into the melee because they'll hit the enemy as well, and reinforcements were available? That didn't happen during the real battle. Why not? Because for one thing, it would be terrible for moral. In addition, a hail of arrows from the rear would probably lead to a confused rout, as men assumed the enemy was behind them. In-game, it would lead to players pinning stronger units with weaker ones and then hosing down both with missiles. Yes, theoretically this could be done. Was it done, in reality? If it was, not often enough to warrant inclusion in the game. The one real life example I can think of is the 1781 battle of Guilford Courthouse - rather outside our timeframe, and noted because it was such an unusual occurrence even at the time.

These discussions remind me of the many times players asked why Pike and Shot units could not charge cavalry in Pike and Shot. Yes, theoretically, it might be possible. The problem is, there are virtually no accounts of such units doing so - which leads to the likelihood that these units were formed defensively in the face of cavalry. So, having that additional tactical option available to the player would just be wrong. Finally, more options does not = more strategy. Limiting a players options often increases strategy. One comment newer people sometimes make is that they find the slow pace of movement frustrating. Yet that slow pace is what rewards cunning deployments, and maneuvers that begin several turns before they can come to fruition.

As for new features - a simple provincial campaign in the style of Shogun Total War 1 would make me happy, particularly if a multiplayer version with PBEM simultaneous campaign turns resolved on the battle map could be rigged up with many players. But I realize creating such a feature would be very difficult.

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Re: Any chance for real new gameplay features (not just new units) in the future ?

Post by jomni » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:41 am

Snuggle... have you tried Tides of Conquest?

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