Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Unlike most common melee/impact capabilities, pike gets chipped away at quickly through losses.
What is the historical reason for this? If spearmen/swordsmen/impact foot get represented at full POA regardless of casualties, why not pike? Combat strength modifier already takes into account losses.
From what I know of famous phalanx defeats (Magnesia etc), they emphasize disruption and flanking as causes of defeat. I haven't heard of a battle where phalanxes were defeated frontally due to mounting casualties.
What is the historical reason for this? If spearmen/swordsmen/impact foot get represented at full POA regardless of casualties, why not pike? Combat strength modifier already takes into account losses.
From what I know of famous phalanx defeats (Magnesia etc), they emphasize disruption and flanking as causes of defeat. I haven't heard of a battle where phalanxes were defeated frontally due to mounting casualties.
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Yeah, it's pretty counter-intuitive that pikes are the most casualty sensitive unit in the game. It has been discussed several times, last thread was just couple weeks ago. Hopefully the pikes get overhauled at some point.
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Is that actually true? It is for impact, but melee frontage penalties show up for 480 sized units, but not for pikes, which hurts them in melee as well. Can we get some numbers for the marginal performance drop in melee? I thought the forces being outnumbered penalties were pretty steep
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Most foot has 100 POA in melee. Pike has more than 100. It is already good at melee (if steady). There should exist some mechanic to gradually reduce it's melee bonus. Always maintaining 200 POA is too much.
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Yeah but they lose their POA too easily. If I remember correctly 100 POA is lost with the 4th rank (the unit is large target and only protected so this can go very fast) and the another 100 starts going down with the 3rd rank. The pikes usually lose their advantage very quickly and are at disadvantage soon after (against infantry of similar price).
It makes no sense that unit that should have a lot of redundancy is affected by casualties faster and more than any other unit type in the game. Even if the pikes fought in just 8 ranks deep formation, the amount of pikes on the front (first 5 ranks) shouldn't have reduced much by the time the unit auto-breaks.
It would make much more sense if the pikes had static +100 impact and melee POA vs any and dynamic +50 POA that goes down to 0 as the 4th and 3rd ranks are destroyed. This would make the pikes slightly more durable in extended combat but reduce their deadliness, which seem more fitting characteristics for pikes given their typical role in Macedonian warfare. If this caused Impact foot (or elephants) to perform too well against pikes frontally then impact adjustments could be made to impact foot POA vs pikes.
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
It's great at melee, but it also costs more than any other average protected unit. Most units in that price range at least have the Superior trait, providing +50 POA in impact and melee, as well as a boost to cohesion tests.
Maybe Mike or rbodley could provide some accurate specifics about how the deep pike bonus is lost and how it compares to size advantage bonuses, and normal attrition penalties?
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
The argument doesn't hold up when i compare it against something like offensive spearmen. Citizen hoplites cost 42. if you knock out a full row... they auto-route. if you knock out a row on a second one, you now made 84 points worth of units route. that suggests they are more vulnerable than average pike. what specific unit are you saying is less vulnerable to casualties? Warbands obviously are (the first row lost cost them only 10 POA, so their first 240 deaths have by far the lowest impact outside of that 720 sized spear unit). But are we comparing them to... say.... impact foot? because if pike is less vulnerable to casualties than spear and heavy weapons and LS,Sword infantry.... and are still too vulnerable, then that suggest the problem (if there is one) is that impact foot aren't harmed very much by casualties (since they benefit more from the untouched impact phase). Or that there is another different problem with pike armies.MVP7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:36 pmYeah but they lose their POA too easily. If I remember correctly 100 POA is lost with the 4th rank (the unit is large target and only protected so this can go very fast) and the another 100 starts going down with the 3rd rank. The pikes usually lose their advantage very quickly and are at disadvantage soon after (against infantry of similar price).
It makes no sense that unit that should have a lot of redundancy is affected by casualties faster and more than any other unit type in the game. Even if the pikes fought in just 8 ranks deep formation, the amount of pikes on the front (first 5 ranks) shouldn't have reduced much by the time the unit auto-breaks.
It would make much more sense if the pikes had static +100 impact and melee POA vs any and dynamic +50 POA that goes down to 0 as the 4th and 3rd ranks are destroyed. This would make the pikes slightly more durable in extended combat but reduce their deadliness, which seem more fitting characteristics for pikes given their typical role in Macedonian warfare. If this caused Impact foot (or elephants) to perform too well against pikes frontally then impact adjustments could be made to impact foot POA vs pikes.
I'll run some tests to get us the POA loss vs undersized unit melee combat comparisons tomorrow if no one beats me to it.
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
quick test 10 trials each:
960/960 pike vs 485 mercenary hoplites. 50.5% win, 49% draw, 1% loss
907/960 (yes, the starting amount matters for pike POAs) vs 427 O.Spears. Impact 40.2/58.7/1.2 melee 53.5/46.1/0.5
847/960 vs 427: Impact 28.3/68.8/3.3 melee 41.0/57.5/1.8
847/960 vs 344: Impact 22.3/72.6/5 melee 46.3/52.6/1.2
note: i have no idea how the impact numbers went down in the last test from the previous, when they should have remained identical.
I'd love to get the algorithm and do this more precisely, but i don't know it. It appears that equal casualties applied to pikes and to O.Spear results in a similar drop off in melee round performance. impact numbers, however, do drop for the pikes, so i guess i'm wrong and pikes are in fact more vulnerable to casualties.
960/960 pike vs 485 mercenary hoplites. 50.5% win, 49% draw, 1% loss
907/960 (yes, the starting amount matters for pike POAs) vs 427 O.Spears. Impact 40.2/58.7/1.2 melee 53.5/46.1/0.5
847/960 vs 427: Impact 28.3/68.8/3.3 melee 41.0/57.5/1.8
847/960 vs 344: Impact 22.3/72.6/5 melee 46.3/52.6/1.2
note: i have no idea how the impact numbers went down in the last test from the previous, when they should have remained identical.
I'd love to get the algorithm and do this more precisely, but i don't know it. It appears that equal casualties applied to pikes and to O.Spear results in a similar drop off in melee round performance. impact numbers, however, do drop for the pikes, so i guess i'm wrong and pikes are in fact more vulnerable to casualties.
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Yeah, pikes essentially get double-taxed for losses. Not sure what units and in what kind of circumstances you tested but the unexpected change on impact could be due to non-open terrain.GamerMan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:11 pm quick test 10 trials each:
960/960 pike vs 485 mercenary hoplites. 50.5% win, 49% draw, 1% loss
907/960 (yes, the starting amount matters for pike POAs) vs 427 O.Spears. Impact 40.2/58.7/1.2 melee 53.5/46.1/0.5
847/960 vs 427: Impact 28.3/68.8/3.3 melee 41.0/57.5/1.8
847/960 vs 344: Impact 22.3/72.6/5 melee 46.3/52.6/1.2
note: i have no idea how the impact numbers went down in the last test from the previous, when they should have remained identical.
I'd love to get the algorithm and do this more precisely, but i don't know it. It appears that equal casualties applied to pikes and to O.Spear results in a similar drop off in melee round performance. impact numbers, however, do drop for the pikes, so i guess i'm wrong and pikes are in fact more vulnerable to casualties.
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
It is the exact same units in all 3 tests open terrain, steady cohesion. Just force size and their weapon poas to contend with
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
There is a cap on combat strength ie the “number of men fighting”. That cap is 480( for infantry). The overlap melee bonus ie a bigger unit versus a smaller only comes into play when one or both units are smaller than the cap , the bigger unit gets a size bonus up to the size diffence but only counts up to the 480 cap. So the size bonus for a pike unit vs a 480 size unit is zero and if the pike remains at 960 ( or is between 960 and 480) and the other is reduced to say 380 (480 - 380) then it has a hundred point differential. How that’s translated into combatb power used by the engine isn’t well documented.
However, it’s why your example shows pikes getting worse at impact as they lose men ( poa degradation)
In the last sample the pike has lost roughly 12%? Men thus is getting less than 50 poa’s for the 4th rank... the size difference bonus seems evident in the melee #s as the hoplite is getting ground down, and whatever poa the pike is losing is being made up for by the overlap bonus it is getting.
I’m not sure but I think the overlap bonus might be capped too but RBs would need to confirm.
However, it’s why your example shows pikes getting worse at impact as they lose men ( poa degradation)
In the last sample the pike has lost roughly 12%? Men thus is getting less than 50 poa’s for the 4th rank... the size difference bonus seems evident in the melee #s as the hoplite is getting ground down, and whatever poa the pike is losing is being made up for by the overlap bonus it is getting.
I’m not sure but I think the overlap bonus might be capped too but RBs would need to confirm.
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
actual numbers. the pike lost 113/240 men in the back row 47POA. They have 153POA remaining. they still have 480 man frontage. hoplites have a frontage of 344 men. Overlap is cut in half. So that line is the performance for 412 pikes at a 53 POA advantage vs 344 hoplites. The impact example is 53POA advantage on a 344 vs 344 matchup (no overlap on impact).
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Keep up the good tests. This is definitely something I'd like to have as much real data about as possible.
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
It can also be worth testing pikes against opponents of equal price rather than just armour and quality. It gives a better idea of how good value for points they are.
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
I'd guess they're better against armor than quality. Both armor and quality help determine cost (with size as well). Since armor doesn't help on impact, while quality does, armored units will only benefit from their cost points during the melee phases. Additionally, better quality units will be more likely to pass cohesion tests in the event that they lose against the pike (cough, zealots, cough).
However, I would think a test to see how pike size, superior quality, and armor do vs. ranged attacks would be very interesting. Take the 72 point average pike and see how it handles mass archer fire. Then compare to 54 point armored hoplites (average but better armor) and 60 point veteran hoplites (protected but superior). You'd be testing three characteristics: 1) how much damage does each suffer per volley (look at the tooltip), 2) how likely is each to take and pass a cohesion test (or break), 3) how rapidly does the deep pike bonus vanish under archer fire? What exactly is the relative vulnerability of an average pike unit? Damage sponge, or glass cannon?
However, I would think a test to see how pike size, superior quality, and armor do vs. ranged attacks would be very interesting. Take the 72 point average pike and see how it handles mass archer fire. Then compare to 54 point armored hoplites (average but better armor) and 60 point veteran hoplites (protected but superior). You'd be testing three characteristics: 1) how much damage does each suffer per volley (look at the tooltip), 2) how likely is each to take and pass a cohesion test (or break), 3) how rapidly does the deep pike bonus vanish under archer fire? What exactly is the relative vulnerability of an average pike unit? Damage sponge, or glass cannon?
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Although I don't think it necessary, if anyone thinks the pike can still fight and have some POA with the first two ranks, I suggest that we can give the first two ranks "100 defensive POA". It can be realistic since two ranks deep (aka 8 ranks in real life) is usually for defensive posture to match the enemy's formation length. Pike turns into denfensive spearmen when the 3rd and 4th ranks stripped. But I feel it unnecessary because usually Pike already goes break when only two ranks left.
Or, we may do like this, if anyone feels the pike's ability to sustain impact attack deteriorates too fast. Give them (100 POA+ whatever POA left in 3rd and 4th ranks) when attacked(i.e. in defense), but only 200 POA from the 3rd and 4th ranks to attack(i.e. in offense). But it may give Pike 300 POA in defense. Perhaps too much. Or we may cap it as 200 defense POA, when the 3rd rank starts to diminish, it can goes down less than 200.
However, honestly, I don't want to see any buff of Pike that will increase its price. If the price will increase with any change, I'd rather use the current version.
Or, we may do like this, if anyone feels the pike's ability to sustain impact attack deteriorates too fast. Give them (100 POA+ whatever POA left in 3rd and 4th ranks) when attacked(i.e. in defense), but only 200 POA from the 3rd and 4th ranks to attack(i.e. in offense). But it may give Pike 300 POA in defense. Perhaps too much. Or we may cap it as 200 defense POA, when the 3rd rank starts to diminish, it can goes down less than 200.
However, honestly, I don't want to see any buff of Pike that will increase its price. If the price will increase with any change, I'd rather use the current version.
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
I wouldn't mind seeing a breakdown of what goes into the pike's price. How much is size, how much is deep pike, and how much is square.melm wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:21 am Although I don't think it necessary, if anyone thinks the pike can still fight and have some POA with the first two ranks, I suggest that we can give the first two ranks "100 defensive POA". It can be realistic since two ranks deep (aka 8 ranks in real life) is usually for defensive posture to match the enemy's formation length. Pike turns into denfensive spearmen when the 3rd and 4th ranks stripped. But I feel it unnecessary because usually Pike already goes break when only two ranks left.
Or, we may do like this, if anyone feels the pike's ability to sustain impact attack deteriorates too fast. Give them (100 POA+ whatever POA left in 3rd and 4th ranks) when attacked(i.e. in defense), but only 200 POA from the 3rd and 4th ranks to attack(i.e. in offense). But it may give Pike 300 POA in defense. Perhaps too much. Or we may cap it as 200 defense POA, when the 3rd rank starts to diminish, it can goes down less than 200.
However, honestly, I don't want to see any buff of Pike that will increase its price. If the price will increase with any change, I'd rather use the current version.
We should all Stand With Ukraine.
Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
Strange and counter-intuitive to me. I'd even always avoided shooting at pike blocks if other targets were available assuming the ranged casualties inflicted would just be a drop in the bucket..
As mentioned flanking and rough terrain were the historical causes of the big pike losses instead of them being ill-suited to drawn out attritional fighting (if anything you'd think they'd be rather good at that as they have plenty of ranks spare that can simply step in if casualties are solely frontal). Hopefully a non-convoluted method of balancing this can be found (without upping the price of the already rather expensive pikes). Extra sensitivity to flanking charges and/or fighting multiple units?
As mentioned flanking and rough terrain were the historical causes of the big pike losses instead of them being ill-suited to drawn out attritional fighting (if anything you'd think they'd be rather good at that as they have plenty of ranks spare that can simply step in if casualties are solely frontal). Hopefully a non-convoluted method of balancing this can be found (without upping the price of the already rather expensive pikes). Extra sensitivity to flanking charges and/or fighting multiple units?
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
I think we need to see more numbers on the exact combat impact of casualties on pikes vs other units. It's relatively easy to see the POA drop on Deep Pike, but at least from my view, it's less clear what the combat impact of casualties on normal units translates to. If a pike and a hoplite take an equivalent amount of damage, does the relative combat odds between them change at all, or does it remain relatively constant?
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Re: Why is pike POA dependent on casualties?
If we assume each side, Pike and Hoplites, suffers the same casualty for each round and 100 POA = 1/3, the melee odds of pike increases linearly with number of turns. ( We also need to assume "no cohesion drop", which is very unlikely)Geffalrus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:15 pm I think we need to see more numbers on the exact combat impact of casualties on pikes vs other units. It's relatively easy to see the POA drop on Deep Pike, but at least from my view, it's less clear what the combat impact of casualties on normal units translates to. If a pike and a hoplite take an equivalent amount of damage, does the relative combat odds between them change at all, or does it remain relatively constant?
The initial point and last point on linear function are:
Turn 1. The initial POA diff = 100, strength% diff = 0, win% of pike = 1/3 + 14%.
Turn N. Assume hoplites loses half of its strength and breaks, which means pike loses the same amount, the fourth rank.
POA diff = 0, strength% diff = 50%, win% of pike = 50% +14%.
Function pike win odds = 1/3(1+ N* casualty per turn / 480) +14%.
The change rate is (casualty per turn/3/480)
The impact phase doesn't count combat strength. Thus hoplites always gets 100 POA while Pike gets 200*(1- casualty/480). It's obvious that impact win odds for pike is a decreasing function.
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