Moving through a ZOC

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:03 am

The more I think about it, the more I gravitate toward the charge or trapped option. The coding, and the possibilities for exploitation, could be complex, but I do agree that the current situation is not desirable.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:21 am

While I agree a review for change might be in order, I really don’t want to see Cavalry pinned in such a manner by two infantry...(I’d prefer if Cavalry ignored infantry secondary zoc’s in normal circumstances anyhow)

So , what if the player whom at the start of his active turn has an infantry unit pinned as noted , is forced to abide by the zoc rules as suggested. Give the player the option to form a defensive formation, with a cohesion test to succeed, and cohesion drop or two if failed. This formation for non pikes would be similar to square but perhaps only get a %of their normal poa , say 75%.
To prevent gamy use, the option to form defensive formation would only occur when zoc’d as above. There is no reason why any infantry force of 500 men , and surrounded could not have rear ranks turn about imho.

I have not put any deep thought on how much this could alter game play. The minimal amount of times this happens in my games makes it somewhat of a non issue.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by melm » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:57 am

The manual actually talks about this situation.

In section 12.1.1 ZOC, it says

If a unit is in the ZOC of multiple enemy units, the game will decide
which one it must move away from – prioritizing primary ZOCers.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:53 am

melm wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:57 am
The manual actually talks about this situation.

In section 12.1.1 ZOC, it says

If a unit is in the ZOC of multiple enemy units, the game will decide
which one it must move away from – prioritizing primary ZOCers.
Then I apologise in that regard. I did not "see" that when reading the manual. The issue still remains though.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:59 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:53 am
melm wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:57 am
The manual actually talks about this situation.

In section 12.1.1 ZOC, it says

If a unit is in the ZOC of multiple enemy units, the game will decide
which one it must move away from – prioritizing primary ZOCers.
Then I apologise in that regard. I did not "see" that when reading the manual. The issue still remains though. Some very good points by everyone.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:01 am

MikeC_81 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:45 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:24 pm
I think a cohesion test to escape these situations seems reasonable. Or coding it so that the unit can either do nothing or charge the unit to its front
I dislike being able to escape the situation at all, CT test or no. If you could escape, then there is no reason why we couldn't have units pass through ZoCs in other situations as well provided they pass a CT. The primary function of ZoCs in an I GO-YOU GO game format is to disallow moves which would only have been made possible by the transition of a real-time event into a turn-based event. Not just in this game, but in any other strategy/tactics game that uses such a turn-based system. The frontal ZoCs, in this case, represents the ability of the off turn player's units to "react" in real-time to things that happen in front of it.

Right now in Cunningcairn's scenario, and others that were encountered, units are being allowed to do things that they are strictly forbidden to do otherwise. If you want to allow a hail mary charge to the frontal unit, sure. But to allow it to just ignore the unit in front of it and avoid certain destruction is wrong imo, even if table top rules are like that.
I agree 100%

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Paul59 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:51 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:01 am
MikeC_81 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:45 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:24 pm
I think a cohesion test to escape these situations seems reasonable. Or coding it so that the unit can either do nothing or charge the unit to its front
I dislike being able to escape the situation at all, CT test or no. If you could escape, then there is no reason why we couldn't have units pass through ZoCs in other situations as well provided they pass a CT. The primary function of ZoCs in an I GO-YOU GO game format is to disallow moves which would only have been made possible by the transition of a real-time event into a turn-based event. Not just in this game, but in any other strategy/tactics game that uses such a turn-based system. The frontal ZoCs, in this case, represents the ability of the off turn player's units to "react" in real-time to things that happen in front of it.

Right now in Cunningcairn's scenario, and others that were encountered, units are being allowed to do things that they are strictly forbidden to do otherwise. If you want to allow a hail mary charge to the frontal unit, sure. But to allow it to just ignore the unit in front of it and avoid certain destruction is wrong imo, even if table top rules are like that.
I agree 100%
I am afraid I do not agree. In a "Real Time" game the "trapped unit" would probably not sit still and let itself be trapped in the first place!
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:28 am

Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:51 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:01 am
MikeC_81 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:45 pm


I dislike being able to escape the situation at all, CT test or no. If you could escape, then there is no reason why we couldn't have units pass through ZoCs in other situations as well provided they pass a CT. The primary function of ZoCs in an I GO-YOU GO game format is to disallow moves which would only have been made possible by the transition of a real-time event into a turn-based event. Not just in this game, but in any other strategy/tactics game that uses such a turn-based system. The frontal ZoCs, in this case, represents the ability of the off turn player's units to "react" in real-time to things that happen in front of it.

Right now in Cunningcairn's scenario, and others that were encountered, units are being allowed to do things that they are strictly forbidden to do otherwise. If you want to allow a hail mary charge to the frontal unit, sure. But to allow it to just ignore the unit in front of it and avoid certain destruction is wrong imo, even if table top rules are like that.
I agree 100%
I am afraid I do not agree. In a "Real Time" game the "trapped unit" would probably not sit still and let itself be trapped in the first place!
but isn't that the point?

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:51 am

Further to this discussion why can't my triarii move directly to it's front but can move to the position held by the hastati to it's right if the hastati moves first?
move thru zoc 2.jpg
move thru zoc 2.jpg (596.43 KiB) Viewed 266 times

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Paul59 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:59 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:28 am
Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:51 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:01 am


I agree 100%
I am afraid I do not agree. In a "Real Time" game the "trapped unit" would probably not sit still and let itself be trapped in the first place!
but isn't that the point?
I don't understand, I thought you and Mike were advocating that the trapped unit should remain stuck, with the only option being to charge whatever is in front of it.
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:13 am

Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:59 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:28 am
Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:51 am


I am afraid I do not agree. In a "Real Time" game the "trapped unit" would probably not sit still and let itself be trapped in the first place!
but isn't that the point?
I don't understand, I thought you and Mike were advocating that the trapped unit should remain stuck, with the only option being to charge whatever is in front of it.
No not at all from my point of view. Problem with long threads is the point can get lost or change numerous times. I didn't have strong feelings about this until I found out how pinning actually worked. It becomes random once you are pinned by more than one unit. The normal pinning rules cease to exist. I think that is a problem. Further to that I think a unit should always be able to charge a unit directly to its front irrespective if it is pinned by another unit or not. I also think it is gamey and illogical to not be able to charge a unit purely because he has changed facing to no longer be the main pinning unit. Pursuing units should also be subject to the same rules as units moving normally w.r.t. ZOC's. These are a few points amongst others that I think could be looked at to improve the situation.

Paul have you an answer to my question in the second picture?

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:23 am

I'm just throwing this in the pool. Why should a unit not be allowed to ignore all ZOC when charging a unit within reach? This still respects ZOC's for normal movement but will prevent a lot of gamey play.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Paul59 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:46 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:13 am
Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:59 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:28 am


but isn't that the point?
I don't understand, I thought you and Mike were advocating that the trapped unit should remain stuck, with the only option being to charge whatever is in front of it.
No not at all from my point of view. Problem with long threads is the point can get lost or change numerous times. I didn't have strong feelings about this until I found out how pinning actually worked. It becomes random once you are pinned by more than one unit. The normal pinning rules cease to exist. I think that is a problem. Further to that I think a unit should always be able to charge a unit directly to its front irrespective if it is pinned by another unit or not. I also think it is gamey and illogical to not be able to charge a unit purely because he has changed facing to no longer be the main pinning unit. Pursuing units should also be subject to the same rules as units moving normally w.r.t. ZOC's. These are a few points amongst others that I think could be looked at to improve the situation.

Paul have you an answer to my question in the second picture?
No problem, the Triarii have to move directly away from the enemy unit whose ZOC they are in. Therefore they cannot move directly forward, as that is not counted as being directly away from the enemy unit. If the Hastati move, the Triarii can then move into that square, as that is deemed to be moving directly away.

As regards the main issue, let me have another go at explaining my view:

Mike seemed to suggest that in a real time game the surrounding units would not let the trapped unit simply walk past them to safety, they would react and stop that happening.

My point is that in such a real time game, the trapped unit would probably not have been trapped in the first place, because they would have seen the surrounding units moving into place and escape while they still could.

The real time analogy works both ways!

I am even more opposed to the alternative suggestion of units ignoring secondary ZOCs at all times. That is what happens in the Pike and Shot game, and you end up with completely fragmented battle lines, with units all over the place. I cannot play P&S anymore because of this.


cheers

Paul
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:07 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:46 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:13 am
Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:59 am

As regards the main issue, let me have another go at explaining my view:

Mike seemed to suggest that in a real time game the surrounding units would not let the trapped unit simply walk past them to safety, they would react and stop that happening.

My point is that in such a real time game, the trapped unit would probably not have been trapped in the first place, because they would have seen the surrounding units moving into place and escape while they still could.

The real time analogy works both ways!

I am even more opposed to the alternative suggestion of units ignoring secondary ZOCs at all times. That is what happens in the Pike and Shot game, and you end up with completely fragmented battle lines, with units all over the place. I cannot play P&S anymore because of this.


cheers

Paul
How do you see the issue being resolved?

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:15 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:46 am
Paul have you an answer to my question in the second picture?
No problem, the Triarii have to move directly away from the enemy unit whose ZOC they are in. Therefore they cannot move directly forward, as that is not counted as being directly away from the enemy unit. If the Hastati move, the Triarii can then move into that square, as that is deemed to be moving directly away.

Paul
But if the triarii moves to its front it is moving directly away? "Directly away" is a very ambiguous term.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Paul59 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:22 pm

Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:15 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:46 am
Paul have you an answer to my question in the second picture?
No problem, the Triarii have to move directly away from the enemy unit whose ZOC they are in. Therefore they cannot move directly forward, as that is not counted as being directly away from the enemy unit. If the Hastati move, the Triarii can then move into that square, as that is deemed to be moving directly away.

Paul
But if the triarii moves to its front it is moving directly away? "Directly away" is a very ambiguous term.
The following statement is copied directly from the manual (Section 12.1.1):

A unit that is already in an enemy ZOC cannot make a normal move except
away from that enemy – which (owing to turning restrictions) means that this is
mostly only possible for light troops. The direction of movement must be less
than 45 degrees from directly away from the enemy unit. Movement off to the
sides is not permitted – this is specifically intended to reduce the slipperiness of
light troops. If a unit is in the ZOC of multiple enemy units, the game will decide
which one it must move away from – prioritizing primary ZOCers.
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by MVP7 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:51 pm

This is not an issue I have run to often but if something is to be changed then I wouldn't mind a cohesion check for trapped cavalry that need to hastily fall back through whatever gap remains available to them. It would be pretty consistent with the current fall back mechanic I think.

Allowing cavalry to move through infantry secondary ZOC would not have overall historical or gameplay benefit in my opinion. Secondary ZOC effectively covers some of the limitations of grid and unit based representation: A solid block of infantry in FoG2 does not necessarily represent a solid block of infantry in reality and a "gap" between two units doesn't necessarily mean a perfectly empty space on the battlefield as it could be a stretched part in the front for example.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by MikeC_81 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:42 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:51 am
I am afraid I do not agree. In a "Real Time" game the "trapped unit" would probably not sit still and let itself be trapped in the first place!
It would if the the player maneuvers them in such a spot. Which is what is represented here. A unit that is in the midst of being trapped is allowed to escape the jaws of death and defy ZoC rules simply because the game arbitrarily picks one ZoC to apply only.
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Paul59 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:39 pm

MikeC_81 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:42 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:51 am
I am afraid I do not agree. In a "Real Time" game the "trapped unit" would probably not sit still and let itself be trapped in the first place!
It would if the the player maneuvers them in such a spot. Which is what is represented here. A unit that is in the midst of being trapped is allowed to escape the jaws of death and defy ZoC rules simply because the game arbitrarily picks one ZoC to apply only.
I assume you are referring to Cunningcairn's first screenshot? That does not look to me like the Scutatoi have been manoeuvred into such a spot. They are positioned behind their army's front line, and for all we know have been relatively stationary while the enemy units have approached them.

To quote myself from a few posts back:

"Mike seemed to suggest that in a real time game the surrounding units would not let the trapped unit simply walk past them to safety, they would react and stop that happening.

My point is that in such a real time game, the trapped unit would probably not have been trapped in the first place, because they would have seen the surrounding units moving into place and escape while they still could.

The real time analogy works both ways!"
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:12 pm

The OP screenshot illustrates the problem succinctly. Why should the unit just be able to ignore the secondary ZoC? This leads to situations where it is actually better for your unit to be surrounded than facing one enemy to the front. That is absurd! The option to either be trapped, charge, or turn, seems much more logical to me. If your unit ends up surrounded, its options should be limited and terrible!

However, the idea of being able to charge a unit to the front but turned 45 degrees away from a unit, even if primary ZoC'd from behind, could be worth looking into. Currently, you can do some silly stuff with those ZoC to delay an advance.

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