Please don't make me come and get you.

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
rbodleyscott
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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:15 am

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:12 am
Hadn't realized that chased-off non-routed units can be counted for the percentage. Units that pursue their way off the map aren't I'm pretty sure. How does it work for the chased-off units exactly, do they counts towards the percentage until they return or do they only count if they are not returning?

In either case, I think it's an odd rule that units that are chased off get away from the pursuer for free and have a high chance of returning. In my opinion chased-off units should almost never return. Getting chased off is how cavalry forces were often defeated, not by decisively defeating them in shooting or melee but by denying them chance for easy win and driving them away.
Not really. You could not defeat a steppe army by making it evade off the map! It was pretty hard to defeat a steppe army at all, and you could really only do so if you could outshoot them or they committed themselves to close combat.

Anyway, cavalry armies really don't need to be nerfed, if anything the reverse is true.
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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by MVP7 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:55 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:15 am
Not really. You could not defeat a steppe army by making it evade off the map! It was pretty hard to defeat a steppe army at all, and you could really only do so if you could outshoot them or they committed themselves to close combat.

Anyway, cavalry armies really don't need to be nerfed, if anything the reverse is true.
That can be true for the Asiatic armies, especially Mongols, but on the other hand lot of the Turkic and other Levantine horse archers often walked as soon as they saw there was no easy loot to be had. I think the situation where merely being chased-off wouldn't matter that much would be the skirmishing and harassing war over a long distance and period of time typical to horse archer armies but it's the kind of warfare FoG2 doesn't really cover.

I agree the cavalry armies could use a bit a buffing if anything but I'd much rather see that done in a way that keeps the amount of indecisive and evasive gameplay to minimum. It's definitely historical that Horse Archers armies are hard to beat on operational level but it doesn't work that great in the context of a game that focuses on open field battles and where victory is required and determined by the amount of routed units.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by 76mm » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:49 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:55 am
It's definitely historical that Horse Archers armies are hard to beat on operational level but it doesn't work that great in the context of a game that focuses on open field battles and where victory is required and determined by the amount of routed units.
I don't agree that cavalry armies need to be "fixed" in any way so that they can be beaten more easily in FOG2 battles; the fact is that whatever time period you are playing, some weapons/arms produce mismatches (in a WWII context, it would be like complaining that my rifle-equipped infantry can't chase down and defeat a force made up entirely of jeep-mounted MGs, or whatever).

If you don't like those mismatches (understandable), seems better to simply not play battles that would involve them than to warp the game to allow them.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by MVP7 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:58 pm

My problem is not that the infantry can't chase down and defeat horse archers, it's that they are expected to do so. Every FoG2 campaign requires you win your battles to progress, vast majority of the battles require you to defeat your enemy to win it.

Defeating horse archers armies, as required by the game, is already a major pain for many armies that lack any meaningful cavalry or shooting units. They require extremely cheesy and unauthentic tactics to produce victory even as it is. There currently seems to be a strong trend among the community that promotes the idea of making cavalry more and more loose and mobile, which can easily make those infantry-vs-cavalry encounters even more cheesy and unenjoyable.

I don't think anyone enjoys ZOC-locking or baiting the AI into attacking Limitanei so that you can slowly surround the cavalry unit from all sides with infantry. It's cheesy, silly and unauthentic; it feels more like Fire Emblem than a wargame but it's the only way to force a victory against an AI cavalry army that will not offer you fight or retreat if it can't achieve victory.

Also what I suggested here wouldn't be some massive warping of reality that would butcher the cavalry armies. I'm basically suggesting that the odds of chased-off unit returning were significantly reduced and that they would count for their full percentage value instead of safely depositing half of their point value out of the opponents reach.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:09 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:58 pm
I'm basically suggesting that the odds of chased-off unit returning were significantly reduced
But they already only have a 1 in 20 chance per turn of returning.
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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by MVP7 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:32 pm

Well yeah, the odds of units returning aren't that bad (although after 10 turns the chance of unit having returned is already around 40%) but the safe deposit of half their point value is more significant.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by edb1815 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:52 pm

MikeC_81 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:59 pm
edb1815 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:06 pm
So my earlier comment was directed to medium infantry army tactics and frankly no I am not having a difficult time with any concept here. Apparently you disagree that a defensive plan is a viable tactic. Looking at your exhibit B that can certainly be a valid tactic by your opponent. Let's take for example the Persians and put that army on the hill- mainly medicum bow armed foot. I am not going to rush off the hill into your heavy infantry I will wait for you to attack or try to win the cavalry battle on the flank. That is certainly a valid and historical tactic in my mind. How about a famous example then - Hastings - the Normans were forced to attack a defensive position uphill and yet won the battle in the end. What about when the late medieval DLC comes out, would you have have the English Longbowmen rush out from behind the stakes to attack the French knights?
Yes a valid tactic historically. A tactic of refusing battle. Great! Why play a game of ancient battles then if you intend to refuse battle? :lol:
Setting up a battleline on favorable on favorable terrain and playing defensively is not the same as "refusing battle". As others have pointed out this cedes the initiative to you as the attacker. :lol:

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by Geffalrus » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:12 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:32 pm
Well yeah, the odds of units returning aren't that bad (although after 10 turns the chance of unit having returned is already around 40%) but the safe deposit of half their point value is more significant.
Not sure that's how percentages work, but I'll let RBS confirm how the return chance actually plays out.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by Geffalrus » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:21 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:58 pm
My problem is not that the infantry can't chase down and defeat horse archers, it's that they are expected to do so. Every FoG2 campaign requires you win your battles to progress, vast majority of the battles require you to defeat your enemy to win it.

Defeating horse archers armies, as required by the game, is already a major pain for many armies that lack any meaningful cavalry or shooting units. They require extremely cheesy and unauthentic tactics to produce victory even as it is. There currently seems to be a strong trend among the community that promotes the idea of making cavalry more and more loose and mobile, which can easily make those infantry-vs-cavalry encounters even more cheesy and unenjoyable.

I don't think anyone enjoys ZOC-locking or baiting the AI into attacking Limitanei so that you can slowly surround the cavalry unit from all sides with infantry. It's cheesy, silly and unauthentic; it feels more like Fire Emblem than a wargame but it's the only way to force a victory against an AI cavalry army that will not offer you fight or retreat if it can't achieve victory.

Also what I suggested here wouldn't be some massive warping of reality that would butcher the cavalry armies. I'm basically suggesting that the odds of chased-off unit returning were significantly reduced and that they would count for their full percentage value instead of safely depositing half of their point value out of the opponents reach.
When are you ever - required - to defeat a horse archer army as an infantry army? If you're talking about the tournament.........well, don't pick an army that overly relies on infantry to the detriment of cavalry and shooting. Of course, in the tournament, there's always going to be some army that hard or soft counters you by its very existence and unit choice. That's just life.

As far as horse archer armies........if it's annoying to beat them, then they're working AS INTENDED. Historically they were an annoying pain to face on the field of battle, so I really don't see the problem. As far as facing them in a tournament is concerned.........look, they have serious weaknesses. From a points perspective, each unit pays extra to combine shooting with movement and fighting capability. So at some point, you should be able to take advantage of that inefficiency. Bring as many foot skirmishers as you can. Support them with your infantry. And have some cavalry to charge them as necessary. Here's the thing, if you charge them with infantry, they sometimes don't evade - that - far, and if you're lucky, your cavalry is still in range, and can then get an automatic rear charge bonus. And then there's massed archers or archer-spears. Those units are pretty great counters to horse archers.

Yes, their ability is annoying. But they're far from perfect.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by MVP7 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:46 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:12 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:32 pm
Well yeah, the odds of units returning aren't that bad (although after 10 turns the chance of unit having returned is already around 40%) but the safe deposit of half their point value is more significant.
Not sure that's how percentages work, but I'll let RBS confirm how the return chance actually plays out.
RBS already said that the odds of return are 1/20 per turn, that means odds of an unit NOT returning in 10 turns are 0.95^10 = 60% so the chance that units has returned in 10 turns is 40%. That's how math worked the last time I checked.

As for your latest post, I was talking specifically about campaigns (as I mentioned in my post). I personally have little interest in tournaments and multiplayer as I only play single player. My main worry is always that single player is made less enjoyable by changes that mainly cater to the relatively small number of online players.

No matter what AI opponent any player army faces, the battle should be beatable and enjoyable. Ideally there should be historically authentic ways to win the battle. Even now for many armies, it's not really possible to achieve non-Pyrrhic victory against a HA army without unauthentic cheese tactics. If the cavalry armies are further buffed specifically by making them more evasive then the tactics are going to get even sillier in single player campaigns.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by Gnaeus » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:15 pm

Or at least provide a mod for single player.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by 76mm » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:56 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:58 pm
My problem is not that the infantry can't chase down and defeat horse archers, it's that they are expected to do so. Every FoG2 campaign requires you win your battles to progress, vast majority of the battles require you to defeat your enemy to win it.

Defeating horse archers armies, as required by the game, is already a major pain for many armies that lack any meaningful cavalry or shooting units. They require extremely cheesy and unauthentic tactics to produce victory even as it is.
I totally agree with this, but think that the solution is to fix the campaigns somehow rather than messing with cavalry armies. For the record, I hate playing as or against horsey-shooty armies and generally simply refuse to do so.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by eddieballgame » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:11 pm

I played a league game awhile back & encountered an opponent who did not move...just lined up & waited.
I, bravely (?), marched forward to the end of the map & engaged him.
The result was not good for me...should have stayed back & claimed a draw. :)

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by Nijis » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:02 pm

What's wrong with the tried-and-true miniatures approach of giving both sides a baggage camp or train - not insta-death if it gets captured, but certainly a tiebreaker?

It's fairly historically accurate. When horse archer armies were brought to battle, it was often because they wanted to protect their loot. In Manzikert for example the Byzantines captured the Seljuk camp, although that obviously did *not* result in a Byzantine victory...

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by jomni » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:49 am

Nijis wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:02 pm
What's wrong with the tried-and-true miniatures approach of giving both sides a baggage camp or train - not insta-death if it gets captured, but certainly a tiebreaker?

It's fairly historically accurate. When horse archer armies were brought to battle, it was often because they wanted to protect their loot. In Manzikert for example the Byzantines captured the Seljuk camp, although that obviously did *not* result in a Byzantine victory...
Then both armies don’t move and protect their camps. Or may end up as a game of operational manoeuvre which some people think shouldn’t be in a battle setting.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:44 am

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:46 pm
Geffalrus wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:12 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:32 pm
Well yeah, the odds of units returning aren't that bad (although after 10 turns the chance of unit having returned is already around 40%) but the safe deposit of half their point value is more significant.
Not sure that's how percentages work, but I'll let RBS confirm how the return chance actually plays out.
RBS already said that the odds of return are 1/20 per turn, that means odds of an unit NOT returning in 10 turns are 0.95^10 = 60% so the chance that units has returned in 10 turns is 40%. That's how math worked the last time I checked.

As for your latest post, I was talking specifically about campaigns (as I mentioned in my post). I personally have little interest in tournaments and multiplayer as I only play single player. My main worry is always that single player is made less enjoyable by changes that mainly cater to the relatively small number of online players.

No matter what AI opponent any player army faces, the battle should be beatable and enjoyable. Ideally there should be historically authentic ways to win the battle. Even now for many armies, it's not really possible to achieve non-Pyrrhic victory against a HA army without unauthentic cheese tactics. If the cavalry armies are further buffed specifically by making them more evasive then the tactics are going to get even sillier in single player campaigns.
Please excuse me if I'm not understanding but are you saying each turn the chance of returning increases by 1/20? First turn 1/20, second turn 2/20 etc? If you are not saying that then the chance of returning in turn 10 or turn 9 or whatever would still be 1/20.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by melm » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:52 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:44 am
Please excuse me if I'm not understanding but are you saying each turn the chance of returning increases by 1/20? First turn 1/20, second turn 2/20 etc? If you are not saying that then the chance of returning in turn 10 or turn 9 or whatever would still be 1/20.
He didnt refer to increasing prob each turn.
In 10 turns and in Turn 10 are two different things.

BTW, I feel the thread is of digression and my post exacerbated it further.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by Strategiusz » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:24 am

How about changing deployment zones for Open Battle mode?
Left: current zones.
Right: how can it look after some change.
Image
IMO open battle should be a classic confrontation of forces after most of deployment job is done. But it could be still a room for some adjustments in a few first turns if the enemy let you do this.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:26 pm

Strategiusz wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:24 am
How about changing deployment zones for Open Battle mode?
Left: current zones.
Right: how can it look after some change.
Image
IMO open battle should be a classic confrontation of forces after most of deployment job is done. But it could be still a room for some adjustments in a few first turns if the enemy let you do this.
Agree, more than enough space to maneuver in the right sided depiction.

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Re: Please don't make me come and get you.

Post by MVP7 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:45 pm

The depth of the deployment areas can't be too small or there's no room to deploy multiple lines of troops with sufficient gaps but otherwise limiting the deployment area like that wouldn't do any harm in my opinion. In ideal situation the limits of the map should have no role in the battle itself.

On the other hand this wouldn't really do anything to prevent players from marching backwards to the edge of the map either which would make the change fairly pointless.

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