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streams

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:33 pm
by carll11
So, to be clear, my experience is that defending up in an open tile immediately behind a stream is awarded no benefit from an attacker attacking Through the stream into said defender?

Re: streams

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:41 am
by jomni
It depends on the type of steam. Streams classified as Open has no effects. “Not Open” streams negate open terrain POA. Graphically the same but the tool tip will tell you the difficulty level. Refer to 17.1 of the manual.

Re: streams

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:34 am
by Karvon
Frankly speaking, I've found streams to be very unintuitive in this game compared to my previous wargaming experience. To me, it would seem logical that defending on the bank should give you a substantial advantage and being in the stream a disadvantage. However, in my experience is simply doesn't work out that way. Troops that can evade, can not be counted on to hold a bank, regardless of the difficulty rating. I've had cavalry simply turn tail and run, when tasked to defend such, even when faced by identical horse. Light foot will nearly always flee in such cases in my experience. Light horse is more unpredictable. In one game I had half a dozen light horse defending who were charged by cavalry across a moderate stream. A couple ran, the rest stayed and fought. The enemy had all started at the same range and had the same morale/weapons, so it was a puzzler for me.

On the other hand, troops deployed IN a stream can be very difficult to dislodge. Light troops in a deep stream are like a fortress vs nearly everyone else.

In short, I'm very wary around streams, particularly the deeper ones, and try to avoid fighting around them as they've simply been too unpredictable.

Re: streams

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:33 am
by jomni
Well light troops thrive in difficult terrain.

Re: streams

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:59 pm
by SnuggleBunnies
Karvon wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:34 am
Frankly speaking, I've found streams to be very unintuitive in this game compared to my previous wargaming experience. To me, it would seem logical that defending on the bank should give you a substantial advantage and being in the stream a disadvantage. However, in my experience is simply doesn't work out that way. Troops that can evade, can not be counted on to hold a bank, regardless of the difficulty rating. I've had cavalry simply turn tail and run, when tasked to defend such, even when faced by identical horse. Light foot will nearly always flee in such cases in my experience. Light horse is more unpredictable. In one game I had half a dozen light horse defending who were charged by cavalry across a moderate stream. A couple ran, the rest stayed and fought. The enemy had all started at the same range and had the same morale/weapons, so it was a puzzler for me.

On the other hand, troops deployed IN a stream can be very difficult to dislodge. Light troops in a deep stream are like a fortress vs nearly everyone else.

In short, I'm very wary around streams, particularly the deeper ones, and try to avoid fighting around them as they've simply been too unpredictable.
Well as I'm sure you know it depends on the size of stream, with the smallest having no effect other than increased AP to move across and counting as non-Open terrain. As for unpredictability - don't use evady troops to hold a position. That's not what they're for. It's intentional design that they be less reliable for such tasks. Defending the banks DOES confer a great advantage - Massed Archers can hold their ground against Legionaries if they're behind a Deep Stream! A Moderate Stream only causes Moderate Disorder on horse and Heavy Foot, so lights often won't judge it wise to stand their ground against formed troops.

Re: streams

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:46 pm
by Geffalrus
jomni wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:41 am
It depends on the type of steam. Streams classified as Open has no effects. “Not Open” streams negate open terrain POA. Graphically the same but the tool tip will tell you the difficulty level. Refer to 17.1 of the manual.
Hmmm - I thought all streams disabled lancer and deep pike bonuses. Is there a type of stream that doesn't disable lancer and deep pike? My understanding was that this was the case even in the type of stream that has no combat effect on normal cavalry and heavy infantry other than an increased AP cost.

Re: streams

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:48 pm
by rbodleyscott
Geffalrus wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:46 pm
jomni wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:41 am
It depends on the type of steam. Streams classified as Open has no effects. “Not Open” streams negate open terrain POA. Graphically the same but the tool tip will tell you the difficulty level. Refer to 17.1 of the manual.
Hmmm - I thought all streams disabled lancer and deep pike bonuses.
They do. (Although it is only the impact deep pike bonus, not the melee deep pike bonus)
Is there a type of stream that doesn't disable lancer and deep pike?
No.
My understanding was that this was the case even in the type of stream that has no combat effect on normal cavalry and heavy infantry other than an increased AP cost.
Your understanding was correct.

There are three types of stream:

1) Stream: Non-open terrain
2) Large Stream: Rough Terrain.
3) Deep Stream: Difficult Terrain.

Re: streams

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:53 pm
by Geffalrus
rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:48 pm
They do. (Although it is only the impact deep pike bonus, not the melee deep pike bonus)
Much obliged, and thanks for the impact vs. melee clarification. That makes small streams still not ideal for pike combat, but not as dangerous as I thought, especially if I only pushback into them.

Is deep pike impact disabled if my target is in the "non-open" stream, or only if my pike starts in the stream?

Re: streams

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:55 pm
by rbodleyscott
Geffalrus wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:53 pm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:48 pm
They do. (Although it is only the impact deep pike bonus, not the melee deep pike bonus)
Much obliged, and thanks for the impact vs. melee clarification. That makes small streams still not ideal for pike combat, but not as dangerous as I thought, especially if I only pushback into them.

Is deep pike impact disabled if my target is in the "non-open" stream, or only if my pike starts in the stream?
If either unit is in the stream.