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Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:08 am
by Dux Limitis
As the title said,for example,just like the Lechfeld and the Chalons scenarios,I think the game really should add the plain for the map options.It will allow the cavalry armies to fully use their powers especially the new medieval armies,and it's easy to let players spread troops on the field.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:18 am
by Strategiusz
In Europe there was no such things as big open plains.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:41 am
by Dux Limitis
Strategiusz wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:18 am
In Europe there was no such things as big open plains.
Not means "big",It's just have.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:44 am
by Paul59
Strategiusz wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:18 am
In Europe there was no such things as big open plains.
It depends on what you class as a "big open plain", certainly there is nothing to compare with the American Mid West or the Central Russian Steppes, but there are countless flat empty areas in Europe large enough for two Dark Age armies to fight on.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:08 am
by Dux Limitis
Paul59 wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:44 am
Strategiusz wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:18 am
In Europe there was no such things as big open plains.
but there are countless flat empty areas in Europe large enough for two Dark Age armies to fight on.
That is correct.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:50 pm
by pinwolf
"Countless" is too strong word for this.

Europe north of the Alps was all woods before the Middle Ages.
In "Germany" real big style systematic forest clearance for settlement started only around 1100 AD.

Without homo sapiens sapiens Central Europe would be endless primeval beech forests:
Image
Image
-> http://www.weltnaturerbe-buchenwaelder. ... rests.html
-> https://translate.google.com/translate? ... nde-europa

The rest would be largely high mountain areas and swampland.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:53 am
by Paul59
The last time I checked this game covered far more than just "Europe North of the Alps", and the OPs title for this thread is Mediterranean, Northern European, Middle East, so why limit this discussion to Northern Europe?

Anyway, the article you link to says that the deforestation of Germany started in 500 AD, and was greater than todays level by 1400, this game will eventually cover up to 1500. So where is the problem?

Also, the main point I (and I think Dux Limitis) was trying to make is that Dark Age and Medieval armies do not need vast plains to deploy on. Anything more than a square kilometre of flat terrain would be plenty for most European armies of that period, which would rarely be more than 5000 men.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:16 am
by pinwolf
There is no problem.
The point is that before 1100 AD north of the Alps most "countless flat empty areas large enough for two Dark Age armies to fight on" where either a swamp or man-made. Or at least they where not "countless". That's all I want to say.
I have absolute nothing against plain tiles for europe and the rest in the game.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:41 am
by rbodleyscott
As pinwolf says, most deforested lowland areas were in fact agricultural, for which there is already a map type. Fields in Northern European and Mediterranean maps count as open terrain.

Few areas in Northern Europe were completely deforested, so there will still be areas of woodland on such maps.

Few "plains" were as flat as a pancake, so you will also get some hills, usually not difficult ones.

If you want to play on (almost) featureless flat plains, you can use the Steppe terrain type. (What's in a name?)

As I have said before, the game map is NOT the battlefield. The battlefield is the part of the map on which the clash of arms finally occurs. Just because an Agricultural map includes some non-open terrain features does not mean you have to fight the battle on them.

And if no battle in fact occurs because both sides don't fancy attacking, because of the terrain, history is replete with such occurrences.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:41 am
As pinwolf says, most deforested lowland areas were in fact agricultural, for which there is already a map type. Fields in Northern European and Mediterranean maps count as open terrain.

Few areas in Northern Europe were completely deforested, so there will still be areas of woodland on such maps.

Few "plains" were as flat as a pancake, so you will also get some hills, usually not difficult ones.

If you want to play on (almost) featureless flat plains, you can use the Steppe terrain type. (What's in a name?)

As I have said before, the game map is NOT the battlefield. The battlefield is the part of the map on which the clash of arms finally occurs. Just because an Agricultural map includes some non-open terrain features does not mean you have to fight the battle on them.

And if no battle in fact occurs because both sides don't fancy attacking, because of the terrain, history is replete with such occurrences.
But the agricultural map still have many difficult terrain,or just make the medieval agricultural map like the Lechfeld scenario for the game?(more fields,less difficult terrains)And I remember such as the battle of Crecy,Grunwald,Wakefield,Towton,all of these battles were happen on the plains so I think it's still necessary to make that map type.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:28 pm
by rbodleyscott
Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm
And I remember such as the battle of Crecy,Grunwald,Wakefield,Towton,all of these battles were happen on the plains so I think it's still necessary to make that map type.
It would help if you explained exactly what you mean by a "plain".

At Crecy the French charges were hampered by muddy ground and charging uphill.

At Wakefield half of the Lancastrian army was concealed in woods.

At Towton the ground was not flat, there was a valley between the two armies, there were two large woods (in one of which Lancastrian cavalry were hidden) on one flank and a marsh on the other.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:53 pm
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:28 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm
And I remember such as the battle of Crecy,Grunwald,Wakefield,Towton,all of these battles were happen on the plains so I think it's still necessary to make that map type.
It would help if you explained exactly what you mean by a "plain".

At Crecy the French charges were hampered by muddy ground and charging uphill.

At Wakefield half of the Lancastrian army was concealed in woods.

At Towton the ground was not flat, there was a valley between the two armies, there were two large woods (in one of which Lancastrian cavalry were hidden) on one flank and a marsh on the other.
Oh,sorry for that,maybe I should change to the "large open grounds".I think at least there were some open grounds(relative,like the Eastern Europe and the Middle Europe).Or remake the North European agricultural map as the Lechfeld?Other situations can just use the wooded type maps.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:36 pm
by pinwolf
The Lechfeld (Feld=Field) is a sandur south of Augsburg formed during the last glacial epoch. So, it's indeed a (small) natural "plain".
I would classify it as heathland, so agricultural field tiles are "correct" for this:
-> http://www.countrysideinfo.co.uk/whatis.htm

In the end it comes down to that ancient northern Europe is not suited for horse armies. It's warband land. Savage tribes fighting in the jungle.
Your proposal is like demanding that steppe terrain maps should have some connected patches of large wood, so that early germanic foot-tribes have a better chance invading the back country of the Huns.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:35 am
by Dux Limitis
pinwolf wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:36 pm
The Lechfeld (Feld=Field) is a sandur south of Augsburg formed during the last glacial epoch. So, it's indeed a (small) natural "plain". I would classify it as heathland, so agricultural field tiles are "correct" for this.
In the end it comes down that ancient northern Europe is not suited for horse armies. It's warband land. Savage tribes fighting in the jungle.
Your proposal is like demanding that steppe terrain maps should have some connected patches of large wood, so that early germanic foot-tribes have a better chance invading the back country of the Huns.
But now I think the game was already have armies of medieval Europe?Not the ancient,the horse armies were the mainly combat power then.Just wanna have a map more like the Lechfeld scenario,different with the ancient times,more better let the medieval horse armies fight on.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:42 am
by jomni
One thing i thought of... is the proportion of open space appropriate in relation to the battle size? For example, if people playing medium battles find enough relatively open space in agricultural to fit the whole army. Will Large battle players see the same thing? Or will their lines be broken up by terrain? I’m asking because I only play medium size and find the open space to be fine and not restrictive.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:44 am
by Dux Limitis
jomni wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:42 am
Will Large battle players see the same thing? Or will their lines be broken up by terrain? I’m asking because I only play medium size and find the open space to be fine and not restrictive.
Yes,I always play the 2000 points' scale large battles.I think most of the scenarios are large scale too.Unfortunately they can make maps for the scenarios,but when play the custom battles the random map generation not.So I want a new map type(medieval agricultural?),more open,different with the ancient types.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:15 am
by pinwolf
It would indeed be nice, if the random map generator could take the date into account when calculating the percentages between open and wooded terrain. At least for Northern Europe.
The fields on the agricultural maps now look much too large for ancient times.
Almost like LPG fields. :D
-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwirts ... ssenschaft

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:02 am
by Dux Limitis
pinwolf wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:15 am
It would indeed be nice, if the random map generator could take the date into account when calculating the percentages between open and wooded terrain. At least for Northern Europe.
Indeed,let's just wait for what they'll do.

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:09 am
by jomni
Regarding medieval, I was under the impression that the armies are smaller than ancient. I’m I wrong to think this way?

Re: Suggestion:add the plain(Mediterranean,North European,Middle East) for the map types.

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:50 am
by Dux Limitis
jomni wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:09 am
Regarding medieval, I was under the impression that the armies are smaller than ancient. I’m I wrong to think this way?
Some battles were still above fifteen thousands men(Lechfeld was above fifteen thousands, and Crecy was above at least twenty-five thousands),these numbers in the game are indeed large scales.