Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.3

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
Post Reply
Schweetness101
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:12 am

Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.3

Post by Schweetness101 » Sat May 30, 2020 4:20 pm

===Version 1.3===

Version 1.3

download for MULTIPLAYER and CAMPAIGNS folders version:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/903dosc5fdt8 ... yuXta?dl=0

and global version:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g56k6p8z53by ... bX-Fa?dl=0

Then extract the folder to:

C:\Users\YourName\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\CAMPAIGNS

to be able to launch the mod in custom battles

and if you copy the folder over to:

C:\Users\YourName\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\MULTIPLAYER

you should be able to use it in multiplayer games, and into:

C:\Users\YourName\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\MODS

for the global mod version

change list:

1) Don't need to be at as great an advantage to get the reduction in charge refuse chance for combat advantage
2) UI now only 'in command' or 'out of command', +1 to CT is like vanilla (next to your SG or CinC in combat), everything set based on being in command at beginning of turn, and radius set based on in combat/pursuing (1 tile) or out of combat (4 tiles) at turn beginning
3) fixed combat advantage bug in refusals to charge and edited UI message a bit
4) loss of 2 AP for non light units from being out of command (not suffered on first turn to avoid a bug with that, plus it kind of makes sense that you would not get it on the first turn)
5) mp army list fixed with REPLACE string in armylist.txt so shows properly in hosted multiplayer games if you use mod added army lists
6) increase min pikes for macedonian 4th century mod army
7) anarchy now displayed as "disciplined" (0), "undisciplined" (25) or "does not anarchy" (-1). Unit quality adds or subtracts 20 from base anarchy chance if superior or above or raw or below, rather than that being part of base anarchy
8 ) compatible with new version of base FOG2 (1.5.30 – “Warband Update”), so updated to have all the new pike, warband, lancer etc...new unit models, and updated the scripts that changed for light cav turning non lights, and so on...
9) removed chance for random reduction in AP when evading only for light foot so not so easily caught by non light foot (balance of this needs testing)
10) fixed pursuit_chanceofcharging permitting impermissible pursuits, at least for light infantry and fragmented units, and on the whole changed quite a bit of it's logic

further updates (8:00 am MST 7/3):
1) fixed issue with ap reduced below 0 when out of command (prevented artillery from firing)
2) fixed 14/10 pursuit warband bug on stop
3) negative ct for back edge camping (-1 and for back 4 tiles of your side)
4) covered map with UI background while selecting forces
5) added general selection/purchasing
6) made non light cavalry not break off combat that is with only foot bowmen, and less likely to do so against multiple enemies if one of them is foot bowmen (because doing so is a kind of weird suicide)
7) added exception for lights refusing to charge non lights for artillery (ie light cav not going to have refuse orders chance increased against artillery like it is against other non lights)
8 ) gave heavy arty 6 ap so they can move very slowly, 1 square per turn, still can only turn 45 degrees, and can move 1 diagonal tile if in command
but only straight if out of command (might change that last bit). not sure about keeping this change but seemed like it might increase the relevance of artillery, especially in MP games, where the tend not to be taken because they cannot move at all (did not make changes to ai for this change so not sure if ai would move heavy artillery, may update ai for this later)
9) fixed unit selection unit preview popup window ui bug

*I should probably have put those further updates in a new version but this was faster

considering:
1) changing general falling to only impose CT on his own troops
2) changing to always have 4 tile radius for command regardless of whether in combat

===Version 1.2===

v1.2 download:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/et4ogve5nkat ... lqKDa?dl=0

change list:
1) fixed display for anarchy and refuse chances that could show above 100 or below 0 %
2) special rules for light troops refusals made only for ranged light troops, ie light lancers not refusing to charge now just because they are light
3) increased chance to test to rally from broken to 60 (from 30 in prev mod version and 20 in vanilla), and to rally from not broken to 60 (from 40 in vanilla)
4) changed refuse order values and math to be accumulative
5) change african spearmen and phoenician african spearmen from 25 to 5 anarchy, and changed Bedouin light horsemen exempt to 25 anarchy, and prodromoi
from exempt to 5 anarchy
6) added anarchy charge test on turn
7) added anarchy charge test on fallback
8 ) decrease chance to refuse charge if at significant combat advantage
9) integrated pikemod, and also added +200 poa for charger and -2 CT for pike on flanks against occupied pikes (still no autodrop), plus the pikemod army list
changes for hellenic factions
10) put charge refusal information into charge tooltip
11) scythed chariots stick around in melee so long as enemy it is in combat with is not steady, rather than if just not broken
12) added CC stuff to refusal chance considerations (with general, cinc dead, inside command radius)
13) added indicator if unit has already anarchy charge tested this turn in ui (replaces anarchy chance after testing)
14) can now rally if within 4 tile command radius of general outside of combat, or if adjacent (within one tile) of general in combat, rather than
just the former as it was before, with updated unit ui and general's command radius image to reflect this
-unit ui has complex changes explained below
15) your lights now being near enemies do not remove group move from your side, and they cannot direct group move either. Because auto assigning
lights to teams in the mod, they will be in the group by default, because you do want them assigned to teams for rally and cc, but you would not want your lights
to be used for group move, so now they can be both assigned to teams and moved independently of their team while not causing their team to lose group
move when they are near the enemy. A bit confusing to write all out but makes sense when you try it. Opponent's lights still impose loss of group move
on your units like normal if within given distance. UI (blue bits) for group move changed to reflect all of that
16) altered Pursuit_ChanceOfCharging calculations, changed chance to pursue to charge quite a bit, among other things if you are a light horse at disadvantage in the charge against non light foot or cav and it would not be a rear attack or against an occupied enemy then stop rather than continue pursuing or charge. Some similar changes for non light cav. Also added guaranteed chance to take charge from pursuit if it would autodrop target. Again, a bit confusing to write out but makes sense when you try it. Needs more testing and is kind of a work in progress
17) changed to count as rear from greater than 100 to greater than 95 degrees to hopefully fix some shallow rear attacks not counting as rear attacks
18) modified per extra unit in combat with effectiveness from 20 to 25, still max at 50, ie 2v1s and 3v1s are a bit more effective now
19) various alterations to casualties between different units types to speed up/slow down combat in different places to try and get the right feel for the mod
20) outside of command range for charge refusals and anarchy charges also taking into account if adjacent and general in combat (ie does not increase anarchy
or refuse chance if adjacent to general in combat and/or in radius of general out of combat, in contrast to before where it was only the latter)
21) show no command radius if general is routing, 1 if in combat or pursuing, 4 otherwise, so that the visual matches the effects
22) increased radius in which units take ct check on general dying from 1 and 2 for SG and CinC respectively to 2 and 3

Done casualty changes:
1) melee and impact combat between light cav casualties increased 33%
2) melee between lights and non-lights: 33% more inflicted by all non-lights on all lights
3) impact between lights and non-light cavalry: 33% more inflicted by non-light cav on lights, unless the lights are light lancers then its mutual
4) damage reduced 25% non light foot vs steady pikes (this is from the pike mod)
5) damage reduced 10% between all other non light foot vs non light foot combat
6) non light inf vs non light inf casualty decrease only 10% now
*these also have indications in the combat log but will probably be removed later to reduce clutter

Unit UI changes:
in the unit ui where it normally just tells you reduced cc or pursuing etc...there will now be indications for if a unit:
1) can or cannot rally on the next preturn based on its current access to command
2) has the +1 to ct if in close combat adjacent to general
3) has the free turn for this turn based on their command access at the beginning of the turn ie like for getting the free turn from being in command radius in vanilla
4) free turn or not
5) No Control instead of No CC, because CC is a bit ambiguous now.
*these are complex changes that are not yet bug free and you may end up seeing some weirdness with the messages, but on the whole the ui stuff should be accurate and give you a good idea of the command situation for any given unit.
*it remains to be seen if these exact changes will be kept, so it is worth paying attention to see if you like these radii and effects for command or if you would prefer an across the board 4 tile radius for everything

===Version 1.1===

download for v1.1:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5g9f7g3mdrvy ... Xiv3a?dl=0

v1.1 change list:

1) reduce anarchy by 20 for units with general
2) increase anarchy for whole army by 10 if cinc is dead or routed
3) changed squads file anarchy base values to -15, 0, 5, 25, and 45 (these are mostly a lot higher for the high anarchy units)
4) added anarchy roll info to combat log
5) added refuse orders roll info to combat log *definitely worth checking the combat log now to learn about the anarchy/refuse stuff if that is not something you normally turn on
6) changed double drop to only happen if at significant combat disadvantage (not unit strength below 75% anymore) *not well tested
7) display base anarchy rating in ui for unit
8 ) global anarchy modifier, increases anarchy 2% per instance of anarchy, across the whole game, up to 10%
9) disrupted units will not anarchy charge steady enemies
10) changed opportunity charge chance from pursuit to 100% if valid target is ahead within 45 degrees *needs testing, pretty large change to pursuits
11) increase charge chance anarchy modifier to 25% for outside command range
12) added charge tooltip explaining secondary zoc loss
13) make pursuits by cav if enemies adjacent and to the front stop only if one of those enemies are also cav and now only within 45 and not 90 degrees of front
14) increase infantry combat resolution time by decreasing melee casualties (not impact) between non light inf down 20% *needs testing to see if too much/not enough slowing down of inf melee
15) got rid of imposed ap loss with cav charges on inf, and instead now increasing cav fallback to 3 squares
16) chance refuse charge if disrupted flat 25%
17) +10 to impact POA if anarchy charging
18) extra +10 (so +20 total) to deep impact POA (basically warband impact)
19) cav refuse orders chance now only vs steady spears in the front, not spears in general
20) increase from 25% to 50% chance to refuse charge for light cav against non light cav (40% if rear attack, and still 0% if fragmented)
21) increase chance to test to rally at all from broken from 20% to 30% (but it's still only within command radius/in units with general)

============================original post below (v1.0)=========================================

Here is the link to the first version of the 'alternative gameplay mod', which if you have been following the mod threads so far, is a combination of the 'aggregate mod' from an old thread (which was in turn an aggregation of mods lol) and new anarchy stuff (anarchy charges and refusals to charge), and some more random tidbits

download link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n5m2aij98ic8 ... 4O11a?dl=0

Anarchy Charges:
There is now a chance for certain units to anarchy charge if they are a) given a non charge move while within charge range of the enemy or b) left unmoved at end turn within charge range of enemy

Active Anarchy Charge Modifiers:
1) All units have a base chance to charge, with some being excluded from anarchy charging altogether. Pete will post the unit list.
2) The base chance to charge is increased by 20 points (out of 100) if the unit is outside of the command radius of a general (either their SG or the CinC only, not all SGs)

The following anarchy charge chance modifiers are not active in the mod, but they are under consideration (most of them are implemented, and I would just have to uncomment them to make them work. We are just starting simple for now). Please discuss potentially activating:
1) increasing/greatly increasing, decreasing/greatly decreasing anarchy charge chance if at combat advantage/significant advantage, disadvantage/significant disadvantage respectively
2) increasing charge chance if the enemy is ranged and you are not
3) decreasing charge chance if you are ranged
4) increasing charge chance if you are at shooting disadvantage (whether you can shoot or not) and at less of a combat disadvantage than a shooting disadvantage (yes this is different from 2 and 3)
5) if you are mounted and enemy is fragmented
6) if you are better off defending your current position than charging to fight the enemy in their position (like you are defending a hill for example)
7) unit quality charge chance changes
8 ) decrease charge chance for unit with general in it
9) change charge chances if target is already engaged
10) increase charge chance across whole army if CinC dies
11) increase charge chance incrementally across whole army as more and more units anarchy charge
12) alter anarchy charge chance for a disrupted unit

Units in these situations never anarchy charge (these are implemented):
1) Foot charging out of protective terrain, or any unit charging foot in protective terrain
2) anyone charging non fragmented elephants
3) charging into terrain that will disorder the charging unit
4) mediums charging from rough or difficult terrain into the open
5) foot charging mounted shock
6) enemy is already routed (might change this)
7) charger is mounted and enemy are non fragmented spears or pikes
8 ) charging would expose you to flank threat


Refusals to Charge: *these are generally set at 25% chance to refuse each unless otherwise specified
There is also now a chance for certain units to refuse orders to charge **A unit that refuses to charge suffers anarchy and not only does it not charge, it refuses to move for the remainder of the player turn.
1) Light Foot charging any enemy other than other Light Foot (unless that enemy is severely disordered, or at all disordered light horse).
2) Light Horse charging any enemy other than other Light Horse and Light Foot.
3) Disrupted troops charging anyone (+25). Especially non disrupted enemies (extra +10 chance to refuse)
4) Troops ordered to charge at very significant combat disadvantage
5) mounted ordered to charge non fragmented spears or pikes, or foot in protective terrain

The above refusal to charge is altered or superseded by:
1) the charge would be a flank attack (decrease chance to refuse), and if it would be an auto drop flank there is zero percent chance to refuse

Additional Changes in this Mod:

1) changed victory conditions to be 50% everywhere
2) assigns lights to a general on deployment
3) remove chance to double drop if at at least 75% strength (does not affect auto drop + drop from losing impact, but double drops from losing a single impact or melee very badly)
4) turned initial pursuit chance to 0 for cavalry that have non ZoCable enemies adjacent to them and within 90 degrees of their front facing, whether those enemies are in combat or not

Change List from Aggregate Mod:

1) Non-light Infantry units charged by non light cavalry this turn a) lose their secondary (NOT Primary) ZoCs this turn only and b) lose 6 AP for the next turn (their turn to move) preventing ZoC trap of cavalry.
2) Adds extra -1 to ct for non light cav vs non light cav on impact and in melee
3) Adds 33% more casualties in non light cav vs non light cav on impact and in melee
4) set the number of turns being pursued while routing before you disperse to 2, from 4 (plus the initial routing turn, so really to 3 from 5)
5) altered continue pursuit chances for cavalry (not to initial pursuit, but for follow up pursuit turns after first turn of pursuit):
-stop chances for cavalry now base 60 (up from base 50) *where stop chance is percent chance to stop this turn
-raised to 70 against other mounted if both same type of mounted
-if pursuer is light and fleer is non light then stop chance is only 50 (vanilla)
-if pursuer is non-light and fleer is light then stop chance is all the way up at 90
6) flank angle mod changes:
-90 degree flank attacks are +50 vs unoccupied and +100 with no autodrop vs occupied, the rear attacks are same as vanilla (+50 and +200 and autodrop respectively)
7) Reduced victory condition auto win down to 50% from 60% ***updated original link so this works ***actually still doesn't work lol, but in upcoming 1.3 it should
8 ) reduced all general command radii to 4
9) removed positive effects of general unless it is the CinC or an SG and you are on the SG's team, ie SG are now like allied generals for the units under their command
10) increased threshold for remaining men in pursued, broken fleeing unit for auto disperse from 1/20 of starting strength to 1/10 of starting strength
11) set odds of testing to rally to 0 if not in range of general's command, keeping in mind you are now only in range of general's command if it is your SG or the CinC, and that general is not in combat, and their radii now are all only 4 (this is a pretty massive nerf to rallying and will probably need to be adjusted back a bit, perhaps with changes to radii, perhaps by simply increasing or decreasing odds to rally if in or outside of command radius, rather than simply making in impossible outside of the command radius, etc...)
12) changed CheckPursuersSwitchTarget() to call the new Pursuit_ChanceOfCharging() rather than the old AI_ChanceOfCharging, which basically just increases the chance that a pursuing unit will derail its pursuit to charge a non routed enemy. helps to make cav pursuers in particular less slippery.

generally considering:

-adding extra 25 poa to heavy lancers and light spear cav on impact vs medium foot
-other medium foot changes?
-adding in the pike mod changes
-put auto drop back in for flank for non light inf vs light inf, or for evaded lights if that isn't working
-change values or autodrops for different flank angle changes, keep for cav vs cav or whatever, lots of variations there to consider
Last edited by Schweetness101 on Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 28 times in total.

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sat May 30, 2020 4:30 pm

Schweetness101 wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 4:20 pm
Active Anarchy Charge Modifiers:
1) All units have a base chance to charge, with some being excluded from anarchy charging altogether. Pete will post the unit list.
High anarchy units (30)

Light chariots with light spear
Warbands
Beserkers
Falxmen
Well-armed slaves
Poorly-armed slaves
Mob

---------------------------------

Medium anarchy units (20)

Any other impact foot troop type including Imitation Legionaries (but excluding Romans)
Mounted Lancers
Mounted spear/sword cavalry
Offensive spears (except shield wall, hirdsmen, huscarls, Varangian Guard)
Other heavy weapon infantry (except falxmen and huscarls)
Heavy and Scythed chariots
Irregular light spear/sword infantry

-----------------------------------

Low anarchy units (10)

Other Light spear/sword infantry
Shield wall and well-equipped shield wall (offensive spears), hirdsmen, huscarls (spear and axe), Varangian Guard
Defensive spearmen
Pikes
Romans
Persian Immortals and Sparabara
Elephants

------------------------------------

Zero anarchy units (0)

Mounted archers
Foot archers
Foot Skirmishers
Light horse
Chariots just with bows
Naffatun
Camelry

ENDS

Note: at the moment we are not differentiating between "superior" and "average/above average" cavalry. Testing has just started on anarchy values of 30 for average/above average cavalry and 10 for superior cavalry.
Last edited by stockwellpete on Sun May 31, 2020 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sat May 30, 2020 5:31 pm

There is a slight difference in approach between myself and Schweetness101 over this mod. My concern is that we could end up making it too complicated. What we should be striving for, above anything else, is simplicity. To my way of thinking "anarchy" (or indiscipline, as I prefer to call it) should be primarily a command and control feature of the game. I think this is an area of FOG2 that is under-developed, even compared to what we had in FOG1.

For this reason I argued very strongly that the three main factors in v1 "anarchy" should be troop type, level of troop experience and being in or out of command radius. If that is all "anarchy" ever was in the mod then that might very well be OK. For players it is easy to understand , but it has enormous gameplay ramifications. Having said that, I do think there are a few more things we might consider adding to give it just a bit more nuance, particularly in relation to loss of leaders, especially the C-in-C. The general idea would be that as the overall command capability of an army was degraded then the chance for indiscipline within its ranks would increase. I would like v2 to focus in this area.

In terms of the long list of possible modifiers (1-12) provided by Schweetness101, it is not that I think most of them are wrong in themselves, it is just that I don't think the "anarchy" rules should be designed in a way that helps to bail out players for poor decisions they have taken during their turn (the anarchy tests happen after a player ends their turn). So, for example, number 5 is . . . "if you are mounted and enemy is fragmented" there will be an increased modifier to charge. Why? Why hasn't the player charged the fragmented unit during the course of their turn? It is the sort of basic mistake the AI often makes. Maybe the player just overlooked it, but the "anarchy" roll should definitely not be doing their job for them, so I would oppose this sort of modifier on that basis alone. I agree with the second exempt situations list (1-8) because they prevent ludicrous things from happening and I also agree with the refusal to charge regulations which need to be specific because players will need to evaluate them before they try to move a unit.

There is a wider point though that if you have all of these situational modifiers (1-12) included in the "anarchy" part of the mod then you end up getting dragged into an endless morass of a debate about this or that particular battlefield situation and the mod becomes too complicated and bewildering for players to enjoy.

Anyway, please try the mod and see how you get on with it. There are lots of other ideas contained within it other than "anarchy". Schweetness101 and myself will do some MP testing as well once the FOG2DL is well under way - and if you are interested in helping us test in MP please get in contact.

10 main things this mod does

1) No automatic cohesion drop for flank attacks. Rear attacks unchanged (melee re-balancing)

2) Units at 75%+ strength will not double-drop cohesion (melee re-balancing)

3) Faster cavalry combat resolution (melee re-balancing)

4) Cavalry pursuit rules in melee changed, ZOC’s, adjacent enemy units prevent pursuit (melee re-balancing)

5) Units will disperse after 3 turns of being routed (melee re-balancing)

6) 50% army rout threshold (melee re-balancing)

7) Command radii for all generals reduced to 4 squares (command and control)

8 Sub-Generals only control units in their starting contingent (command and control)

9) Units will only attempt to rally when within command radius (command and control)

10) v1 Anarchy rules with emphasis initially on troop type, troop quality and command radius (command and control)
Last edited by stockwellpete on Sun May 31, 2020 3:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

desicat
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by desicat » Sat May 30, 2020 7:38 pm

I am a fan of items 8 and 12. A General should be able to control their assigned unit and disrupted units would have problems getting up the courage for a rash/unordered charge.

8 ) decrease charge chance for unit with general in it
12) alter anarchy charge chance for a disrupted unit

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sat May 30, 2020 7:48 pm

desicat wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:38 pm
I am a fan of items 8 and 12. A General should be able to control their assigned unit and disrupted units would have problems getting up the courage for a rash/unordered charge.

8 ) decrease charge chance for unit with general in it
12) alter anarchy charge chance for a disrupted unit
Yes, numbers 8,10 and 11 are actually command and control related issues that I have tentatively suggested today for consideration in v2 anarchy rules (where we fine-tune the basic anarchy idea).

matlegob
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:01 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by matlegob » Sun May 31, 2020 9:19 am

Thank you for this mod

Could you release a version with only the anarchy mod (i.e. without the agregate mod)?

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sun May 31, 2020 9:27 am

matlegob wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:19 am
Thank you for this mod

Could you release a version with only the anarchy mod (i.e. without the agregate mod)?
I will have to talk to Schweetness101 about this. I am not sure that we will though, because we do not want a proliferation of mods in the longer term as it fractures the multi-player base for the game. There have been a number of what we might call "testing mods" in the last few months to look at particular aspects of the game in isolation in more detail, but the intention is to eventually merge these into one "alternative gameplay mod".

TheGrayMouser
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4875
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:42 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sun May 31, 2020 1:33 pm

I’d be more apt to test out the anarchy portion as a stand-alone instead of the smorgasbord of additional changes. It will pretty hard to test balance and list viability with so many changes at once.

cromlechi
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by cromlechi » Sun May 31, 2020 1:46 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:33 pm
I’d be more apt to test out the anarchy portion as a stand-alone instead of the smorgasbord of additional changes. It will pretty hard to test balance and list viability with so many changes at once.
I agree, it's changing the whole nature of the game and far too complicated.

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sun May 31, 2020 2:07 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:33 pm
I’d be more apt to test out the anarchy portion as a stand-alone instead of the smorgasbord of additional changes. It will pretty hard to test balance and list viability with so many changes at once.
Well, anarchy is just one component of a broader development of "command and control" that also involves reduced command radii, sub-generals only giving command to their own starting contingents and stricter rallying conditions.

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sun May 31, 2020 2:09 pm

cromlechi wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:46 pm
I agree, it's changing the whole nature of the game and far too complicated.
It doesn't actually and it's not really that complicated once you have played a couple of games. Give it a try in single player to see. :wink:

TheGrayMouser
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4875
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:42 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sun May 31, 2020 2:59 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:07 pm
TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:33 pm
I’d be more apt to test out the anarchy portion as a stand-alone instead of the smorgasbord of additional changes. It will pretty hard to test balance and list viability with so many changes at once.
Well, anarchy is just one component of a broader development of "command and control" that also involves reduced command radii, sub-generals only giving command to their own starting contingents and stricter rallying conditions.
I get that stuff as being inter related with the anarchy portion but then there are several Frankenstein additions that have no relationship at all and are pretty big changes.

Examples:
victory conditions. Tried and true over a span of three games... now changed

No more double drops for units 75% plus strength?? Kinda penalizes lancer and impact foot armies that have no missle troops. Hard to determine the influence of anarchy on it own accord with such a new rule.
(Actually penalizes every army that doesn’t shoot well...)

I actually don’t care for any of the add ons , but even if I did , they are individually controversial enough that, if your trying to build Mp base for the mod it’s going to be a problem I think.

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sun May 31, 2020 3:18 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:59 pm

I get that stuff as being inter related with the anarchy portion but then there are several Frankenstein additions that have no relationship at all and are pretty big changes.
I have just spent some time re-organising my earlier post to show that the changes in this mod cover two basic areas - melee re-balancing and command and control.
Examples:victory conditions. Tried and true over a span of three games... now changed
A very modest change, linked to reducing the number of turns a unit takes before dispersing and rallying within command radius only. There are too many units rallying from routed in our view in the vanilla game and you too often end up with units all over the map in an incoherent mess. Reducing the army rout threshold to 50% helps significantly with this.
No more double drops for units 75% plus strength?? Kinda penalizes lancer and impact foot armies that have no missle troops. Hard to determine the influence of anarchy on it own accord with such a new rule. (Actually penalizes every army that doesn’t shoot well...)
We need to test this over a significant number of games before coming to any firm conclusions about points adjustments for particular troops. Franks, Galatians, Lombards, Normans have all been doing OK in the play-tests I have done so far.
I actually don’t care for any of the add ons , but even if I did , they are individually controversial enough that, if your trying to build Mp base for the mod it’s going to be a problem I think.
Not just MP. All the early evidence suggests that the AI performance improves quite a bit with this mod. The removal of automatic cohesion drops for flank attacks seems to be important here. The AI cannot plan 2-3 turns ahead to get flank attacks and instead it basically seeks to get 2v1s wherever it can to grind the opposition down. Try playing as Greeks v Galatians or Franks v Continental Saxons using the mod for SP.

Athos1660
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by Athos1660 » Sun May 31, 2020 5:10 pm

stockwellpete wrote: Not just MP. All the early evidence suggests that the AI performance improves quite a bit with this mod. The removal of automatic cohesion drops for flank attacks seems to be important here. The AI cannot plan 2-3 turns ahead to get flank attacks and instead it basically seeks to get 2v1s wherever it can to grind the opposition down. Try playing as Greeks v Galatians or Franks v Continental Saxons using the mod for SP.
The AI of Pike & Shot is mostly inactive at the start of a battle, waiting for the player to come closer, and often gets messy when starting moving. It appears less intelligent than the AI of FoG2.

Yet when I play P&S Single Player battles, I often come with the conclusion that P&S AI is funnier, more thrilling, more surprising, more mobile, more dangerous. It is of course only a personal feeling, a matter of taste.

I guess it is manly due to two rules that have changed since FoG2 and that might have given more freedom and dangerousness to the P&S AI : flank/rear attacks being more dangerous and the absence of secondary ZoCs in P&S.

As a SP player in FoG2, I do wait for a mod using those P&S rules and the AI smartness of FoG2 and adapting them to FoG2 (mainly non-light cavalry being able to evade non-light infantry rear/flank charges), as a way to make it possible to diversify my gameplay experience aside from my primarily playing the Vanilla game. And a plain Anarchy Charge mod could be another way to get this diversity.

(edit)
It is easier to beat the AI in FoG2 than in P&S when applying a rational plan. There is more randomness in P&S, which is a plus and a minus.
Last edited by Athos1660 on Sun May 31, 2020 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sun May 31, 2020 5:22 pm

Athos1660 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:10 pm
And a plain Anarchy Charge mod could be another way to get this diversity.
I need to talk to both Schweetness101 and Richard about this first because I know there is a concern about there being too many mods. I will try and sort it out over the next few days.

Athos1660
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by Athos1660 » Sun May 31, 2020 5:47 pm

Ok.

I understand that fracturing a small multiplayer base is an important concern for a niche game, so options in the Vanilla game (and maybe users' mods) are an issue. On the other hand, I think the single-player base like diversity, campaigns, epic battles, gameplay and cosmetic mods... It is a way to keep it playing. I guess 'fracturing the SP base' is less serious and maybe even an advantage. Can't those two seemingly contradictory objectives be achieved ?

Swuul
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:44 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by Swuul » Sun May 31, 2020 6:05 pm

Too bad there isn't an Anarchy mod only. I quite dislike a couple of the things in Aggregate mod (victory drop to 50% from 60%, automatic dispersion drop from 5 to 3 turns, chance to rally being flat 0 if out of command range), as they are too much of a nerf to high quality armies IMO. As such, I am going to wait for the chance there will be an Anarchy mod only, without the extra baggage from Aggregate mod.
There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

TheGrayMouser
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4875
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:42 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sun May 31, 2020 6:11 pm

So after some games vs the AI noticed a few things/ a few comments:

Almost no units ever rallied from routed status ( average 1 per battle on BOTH sides...) Is this desired?

Can the failure to pass anarchy/refuse be shown on the combat log? Its hard to tell if its working as intended.

The new "quicker" cavalry combat has the odd effect that a light infantry unit in combat with a lancer lasts a lot longer than 1 on 1 cavalry combat... Its just seems weird ...

The new victory conditions dont display the change to 50%

I did not get a double drop from Close combat in any game until near the end of the games where units were in various stages of heavy causualties... I dont like this feature at all and IMHO breaks impact foot and lancers

I like the possible refusal of light cavalry to charge heavies... However, have you considered the impact of this on light cavalry lancers? Perhaps they should be immune?

Overall I found the anarchy to be some what "meh" I didnt really feel I had to play differently, and wasnt particularly concerned when it happened... Possibly it is that it been watered down too much?
I mean, if units wont test if they move out of advantagous position, or if they can be flanked, or charge disordered, or if the opponent scares them (pikes or something) then there is minimal risk to the player, and without the risk no reason to really care if a unit anarchies or not...

The refusal to charge has the risk reward type feel. I like and it should be expanded on

I have to think this thru but are human player going to load their generals into light cavalry from now on and zip them anywhere a concentration of routed troops are? This appears to be the only possible way to reliably get any rallies ( as your not going t put such a uit into close combat)... and of course armies that dont have light cavalry will be punished ( and also silly sitations where a Roman army CnC is with a horse archer cavalry unit...)

Will play a few more and see what comes to mind

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11898
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by stockwellpete » Sun May 31, 2020 6:25 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:11 pm
So after some games vs the AI noticed a few things/ a few comments:

Almost no units ever rallied from routed status ( average 1 per battle on BOTH sides...) Is this desired?
Yes. Once you are routed you are usually gone in the mod. Units with a commander are more likely to rally though as they are always in command radius. We felt there were too many rallies from routed in the vanilla game and then that leads to units being scattered all over the map and games being extended for 5-6 turns while mopping up operations take place. Very tedious.
Can the failure to pass anarchy/refuse be shown on the combat log? Its hard to tell if its working as intended.
That's one for Schweetness to answer.
The new "quicker" cavalry combat has the odd effect that a light infantry unit in combat with a lancer lasts a lot longer than 1 on 1 cavalry combat... Its just seems weird …
Not noticed that myself, but we'll look out for it. Cavalry v cavalry casualties have been increased by one-third.
The new victory conditions dont display the change to 50%
Another one for Schweetness.
I did not get a double drop from Close combat in any game until near the end of the games where units were in various stages of heavy causualties... I dont like this feature at all and IMHO breaks impact foot and lancers
OK noted.
I like the possible refusal of light cavalry to charge heavies... However, have you considered the impact of this on light cavalry lancers? Perhaps they should be immune?
OK. We will think about that.
Overall I found the anarchy to be some what "meh" I didnt really feel I had to play differently, and wasnt particularly concerned when it happened... Possibly it is that it been watered down too much?
I mean, if units wont test if they move out of advantagous position, or if they can be flanked, or charge disordered, or if the opponent scares them (pikes or something) then there is minimal risk to the player, and without the risk no reason to really care if a unit anarchies or not...
Yes, it is a bit like anarchy in FOG1 at the moment. We do have some ideas in the pipeline for v2 anarchy that will sharpen things up a bit more. Which army were you using btw?
The refusal to charge has the risk reward type feel. I like and it should be expanded on
OK, good.
I have to think this thru but are human player going to load their generals into light cavalry from now on and zip them anywhere a concentration of routed troops are? This appears to be the only possible way to reliably get any rallies ( as your not going t put such a uit into close combat)... and of course armies that dont have light cavalry will be punished ( and also silly sitations where a Roman army CnC is with a horse archer cavalry unit...)
Interesting idea. FOG1 players might start doing this but I am not sure FOG2 only players will do this very much, but we'll have to see.
Will play a few more and see what comes to mind
Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful. :D

Schweetness101
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:12 am

Re: Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.0

Post by Schweetness101 » Sun May 31, 2020 11:02 pm

I'll try and address a few things that have come up in no particular order.

The anarchy mod was independent of any other mods for most of its development. It was updated a bit after being integrated into the aggregate mod, but it would not take that long to update the old independent anarchy mod to be the same anarchy as in the aggregate mod, and a standalone. The question is whether I should do that. As Pete was saying, it is part of a holistic change to command and control, and we don't want to split people up too much, but if people really want it I could reconsider and release it on its own.

It is very difficult to balance a lot of changes, but it would be almost impossibly time consuming and tedious to balance each individual change one at a time. The best we can do is add a bunch of stuff that seems like it might balance one another together, test, tweak, and take things from there. It's a long process either way. Don't download the mod and expect it to be balanced yet. If you just want a finished product, probably wait awhile still. But, if you want to help us out, go ahead and download and test! that would be great! There's been lots of great feedback already, thanks everyone for taking the time.

Some have said it is too complicated. These are complex changes for veteran players, and at one point the idea of calling it 'grognards mod' or something to that effect was floated. The mod is definitely aimed in part at people looking for complexity, which is neither good or bad, it just is what it is. I think if you play the game you won't find it too much if at all more complex than vanilla, just different. A lot of the changes are meant more to be felt and not memorized as rules you are always thinking about.

There are some Frankenstein additions to wrap up some longstanding complaints from various veteran players. These changes may or may not be appropriate, that's what testing is for. This is all very tentative stuff, lots is still up to be changed. If people hate various changes, I understand and am more than willing to remove changes in response to feedback.

One thing to be addressed is that a few of those random changes are meant to tidy up the often tedious end game of very long matches. For example, requiring command radius to rally, decreasing turns routing and casualties until dispersion, and lowering victory conditions are all aimed at that goal. Some or all of those changes may or may not be appropriate towards that end. Again, we change a few things in one direction, see if it's too much or not enough, and tweak from there. It's all a process. I will say though that the 60% threshold, and even a 50% threshold, is very generous compared to the historical reality of armies often routing after as little as 10% casualties.

Double drops are a tricky one; some people think they should be adjusted, others that they should be outright removed, and yet others that they are fine as is. The idea with the arbitrary 75% threshold was to make them a bit less frustrating by removing the possibility of fresh units double dropping and basically being lost right at the game opening. That may or may not be a good change. If things drag on too long until double drops are possible, perhaps we should try 90% strength? Or get rid of that change, whatever, it's all tentative. Can you explain though why that change penalizes non-shooting armies? are impact foot that dependent on double drops? seems double drops from impact head on with steady enemies isn't that common anyway? Something devastating but uncommon like double drops on first impact often feels more unfair and random than anything else, like the dice determine the winner too much. Other things balance out these changes as well, like impact foot pushing back enemies are now not auto-dropped on the flanks they have just exposed. Again, needs to be tested to see if that's really working out. Again, the mod's not done yet, just enough advanced that we wanted to share with you.

I'm not familiar enough with P&S to comment on that bit.

It seems if anything units dispersing sooner and being less likely to rally from routing is helping higher and not lower quality armies? IE low quality armies with masses of foot that are rapidly routed but then rally to fragmented on the far edges of the map and stay there are now at a greater disadvantage? Dunno, maybe Swuul can explain that to me better? The idea though as discussed is to get rid of the tedium of chasing fragmented units across the map in the end game. A rallied up-to-fragmented, from broken, unit rarely adds anything to the match at that point other than percent routed decrease, so it seems a bit pointless to keep them around and keep this weird game of hiding rallied and still fragmented units in the forest on the edge of the map. As far as the rest of the army is concerned that unit is gone anyway (out of sight, on the edge of the map in the forest and fragmented beyond further meaningful participation in fighting), so why remove it's count towards routed? It's a bit gamey for rallied from routed units to be hiding on the map edge in that way to keep your percent routed down.

units only rally now if in command radius, so if they routed, and ran across the map far away from any generals, they aren't going to rally. As discussed, that is desired, but of course up for debate.

It would be good to put the anarchy charge stuff on the combat log. I will look into how that can be done. Currently, if you run the game in debug mode, you can see the anarchy logs if you press F6 if you desire.

I have not seen light inf last long against non light cav in vanilla or in the mod. Was that like in rough ground or something? We can look into that and increase casualties against light troops as well if desired, but that's sounds to me like a one off.

What do you mean don't display change to 50%? is that on a menu somewhere? Are you not seeing it in the top left with the rout percent that the game ends after 50?

for light cav lancers we could remove their chance to refuse or keep it and alter it a bit, dunno. We would have to talk about what their purpose is in the first place. If they are just meant to run down other lights, then it makes sense that they might refuse to charge non light cav, but if not then not. So, you tell me?

I agree that the anarchy is 'mild' if you will in this first version, especially for non warband or other anarchy prone armies that manage to keep their units in command range. Right now the idea is it's kind of a consequence of losing generals and letting command get away from you, but it could be fun to tune things way up and let the CHAOS REIGN!!! I dunno, we'll have to talk about that.

currently the not anarchy charging from an advantageous position or if having combat disadvantage or if disordered is not in the mod, it is commented out and not functioning (see OP), but it is true that they won't anarchy charge if there is flank threat in the above v1.0 download. We should discuss in depth and detail what should and should not be considered for anarchy charges.

Refusal to charge is also nice of course, please provide feedback on when/where you would like to see it happen and AT WHAT RATE, right now it's just an arbitrary 25% almost across the board, but what should it be?

Putting a CinC on a light cav unit is a decent strategy, it means they can be moved around quickly to rally different units. Is that bad or unrealistic? I dunno. You also might want to put generals on specific units to help them in combat or with rallies, so there is more of a choice now on what to prioritize. Rather than before, where I generally found that generals were best used as heroes to up the POA stats of units in the most important parts of the line, now you have to ask, is it worth losing rally ability (and not just the in CC extra turn) to commit the general to combat? Armies without light cavalry can still put the CinC on a normal cav or light foot or medium foot behind the line, and in such an army it would make sense for the CinC to be less mobile, would it not? What armies have 0 light cav anyway? some Romans? Plus, it's all a trade-off, IE it's risky to put your most valuable general in a weak and vulnerable light cav unit. And, is it silly for a CinC to be with a mobile light cav unit? that hardly seems silly to me...but I am not an historian.

again, thank you for the feedback and keep it coming! and If anyone wants an MP game with the mod I am available whenever! just pm me for a game.

Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory II”