[Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
kronenblatt
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:21 am

Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
1. However, it seems to me that the problem here is caused by FOGE using different units to FOG2.

2. the obvious solution is not to mod the conversion process but to mod FOGE to use FOG2 units in the first place.
1. Agree.
2. Maybe, but not entirely sure about that. Modding obviously has to be made in FoGE, but creating huge numbers of unique units in a game at the strategic level may simply be too detailed and cumbersome with many new units having to be created, at least in my view. I'm instead pursuing the path of converting FoGE's more generic units into more specific FoG2 units, as part of the battle export mechanism in FoGE. But maybe it will not work, who knows.
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Paul59 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:25 am

kronenblatt wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:21 am
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
1. However, it seems to me that the problem here is caused by FOGE using different units to FOG2.

2. the obvious solution is not to mod the conversion process but to mod FOGE to use FOG2 units in the first place.
1. Agree.
2. Maybe, but not entirely sure about that. Modding obviously has to be made in FoGE, but creating huge numbers of unique units in a game at the strategic level may simply be too detailed and cumbersome with many new units having to be created, at least in my view. I'm instead pursuing the path of converting FoGE's more generic units into more specific FoG2 units, as part of the battle export mechanism in FoGE. But maybe it will not work, who knows.
Yes, it would not be an easy task, who knows what interactions would need to be addressed within Empires.
Field of Glory II Scenario Designer - Age of Belisarius, Rise of Persia, and Wolves at the Gate.

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Athos1660 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:42 am

Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
I can't understand the enthusiasm for this suggestion
I for one wouldn’t call « enthusiasm for (a) suggestion » when two players (even very honourable) like it :-)
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
I can't understand (…) this suggestion, surely it would result in FOG2 armies that are even less similar to the original FOGE armies than the present system?
I thought that the 'problem' (so to speak) was inverse : that exported FoGE armies were not similar enough to the Vanilla FoG2 ones. But I may be mistaken as I haven’t played FoGE much.

I noticed in a FoGE Gallic army in turn 1 (310 BC) I played with that :
- it had plenty of Light horses and « Skirmishers » (+ two types of non-light infantry)
- you could buy mercenary non-light cavalry
- the only horses you could farm at that time were LH
- when exporting it in FoG2 for a battle, the Light Horses remained LH and all the « Skirmishers » turned into javelinmen (no archers, no slingers)
No need to tell you that this actual composition was distant from the related FoG2 army list.
My idea was to make FoG2 battles in FoGE more FoG2-ish.
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
And how would the battle casualties then be exported back into the FOGE units?
Good question !

But maybe not that critical.
What matters is what is left of the force points at the end of the battle for the next FoG2 battle. That’s what you would convert into FoGE units and vice versa. But I may be wrong.
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
I don't know if any one has read RBS's description of the current conversion system;
https://steamcommunity.com/games/101139 ... 2631378916
(…) It seems a pretty sensible solution to me given the problems involved.
No, I haven’t. Thx for the link.
However, Richard knows that none of my poor suggestions ever meant that his work hadn’t been excellent in the first place.

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:44 am

Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:25 am
Yes, it would not be an easy task, who knows what interactions would need to be addressed within Empires.
True, and if I look into it, at least we'll find out. :) That's what modding is about: making twists of vanilla that are to our liking with the tools we have available as private persons doing it all on our free time. And as your great TT mod is testament to, serve as inspiration for and be applied by the game developers, further improving vanilla.
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Paul59 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:55 am

Athos1660 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:42 am
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
I can't understand the enthusiasm for this suggestion
I for one wouldn’t call « enthusiasm for (a) suggestion » when two players (even very honourable) like it :-)
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
I can't understand (…) this suggestion, surely it would result in FOG2 armies that are even less similar to the original FOGE armies than the present system?
I thought that the 'problem' (so to speak) was inverse : that exported FoGE armies were not similar enough to the Vanilla FoG2 ones. But I may be mistaken as I haven’t played FoGE much.

I noticed in a FoGE Gallic army in turn 1 (310 BC) I played with that :
- it had plenty of Light horses and « Skirmishers » (+ two types of non-light infantry)
- you could buy mercenary non-light cavalry
- the only horses you could farm at that time were LH
- when exporting it in FoG2 for a battle, the Light Horses remained LH and all the « Skirmishers » turned into javelinmen (no archers, no slingers)
No need to tell you that this actual composition was distant from the related FoG2 army list.
My idea was to make FoG2 battles in FoGE more FoG2-ish.
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
And how would the battle casualties then be exported back into the FOGE units?
Good question !

But maybe not that critical.
What matters is what is left of the force points at the end of the battle for the next FoG2 battle. That’s what you would convert into FoGE units and vice versa. But I may be wrong.
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am
I don't know if any one has read RBS's description of the current conversion system;
https://steamcommunity.com/games/101139 ... 2631378916
(…) It seems a pretty sensible solution to me given the problems involved.
No, I haven’t. Thx for the link.
However, Richard knows that none of my poor suggestions ever meant that his work hadn’t been excellent in the first place.
Hi Athos,

Well, two players are enthusiastic so far, that's still enthusiasm.

Yes, the problem does seem to be "that exported FoGE armies were not similar enough to the Vanilla FoG2 ones", but in my view your solution does not address that. In the example you give the only problem seems to be that the Gallic Skirmishers are represented by only Light Javelinmen, rather than a mix of javelinmen, archers and slingers. That could possibly be relatively easily fixed by tinkering with the current unit conversion system.

But imagine with your solution that you had an infantry heavy Carthaginian FOGE army in Empires, when you export that army to FOG2 you could maximise your points spend on cavalry, totally transforming the makeup of your army. Or vice versa of course, and the same would apply to any army that has a wide range of units in it's FOG2 army list.

I don't want to discourage people from coming up with new ideas, but in this case I think the better solution is either to improve the current unit conversion system or radically mod Empires to use FOG2 units.

cheers

Paul
Field of Glory II Scenario Designer - Age of Belisarius, Rise of Persia, and Wolves at the Gate.

Field of Glory II Medieval Scenario Designer.

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Athos1660 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:59 pm

Hello Paul :-)
Nice to hear from you.
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:55 am
In the example you give the only problem seems to be that the Gallic Skirmishers are represented by only Light Javelinmen, rather than a mix of javelinmen, archers and slingers. That could possibly be relatively easily fixed by tinkering with the current unit conversion system.
This is actually not the only 'problem' :
- lack of Celtic chariot
- presence of numerous non-celtic LH
- Skirmishers in very large numbers
(if we stick to the Vanilla list.)

It does not have the flavor of FoG2 Gallic.
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:55 am
But imagine with your solution that you had an infantry heavy Carthaginian FOGE army in Empires, when you export that army to FOG2 you could maximise your points spend on cavalry, totally transforming the makeup of your army. Or vice versa of course, and the same would apply to any army that has a wide range of units in it's FOG2 army list.
This is indeed the idea : with this suggestion, in FoGE, you (and the AI) don't 'buy' specific units, you buy force points that you'll be able to spend in FoG2 purchasing the correct units, as it is currently the case in FoG2 custom battles. I said it from the beginning, this is a suggestion meant to be easy (1) and fast to set up and that favours FoG2 gameplay, but that would also go against the idea of sandbox in FoGE (where you buy and build your military buildings, then raise your baby units).
Paul59 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:55 am
in this case I think the better solution is either to improve the current unit conversion system or radically mod Empires to use FOG2 units.
I bow to the King of Mods :-)

Cheers

_____________
(1) well... I am no computer programmer/modder...

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:59 am

Primarily aimed at FoG2 players also playing FoGE and exporting FoGE battles into FoG2, but to everyone with constructive suggestions and ideas of course. :)

I'm working on a FoGE mod (finally having managed to make it work technically through my patented trial-and-error method of somehow causing it to function without really understanding why).

It aims at changing the unit types to which the FoGE unit types are converted into FoG2, adding some limited stochastic approach for each battle in order to create variety among the units.

I'm not changing conversion factors (1->2, 2->1, etc), but I am looking at (a) making the conversion much more faction (or at least ethnic group) specific, all using the FoG2 army lists to a much larger extent, and (b) adding some type of randomness to get a (still FoG2 army list consistent) variety in armies when battling it out in FoG2 (so that sometimes a certain type of FoGE unit type gets translated into one FoG2 unit type and sometimes to another, maybe 2-3 random outcomes).

Of course, this needs to be made manually and I could use some input, ideas, and suggestions, although I will do the actual work and scripting. Right now there seems to be a number of unit types most often applied in FoG2. Which of these would be the most urgent to work with and find alternatives to?

Warband (Close Order): 47 translations from FoGE (i.e., FoGE translates into Warband (Close Order) for 47 of its 700 units in UNITS.xls)
Warband (Loose Order): 32
Noble Cavalry: 30
Irregular Foot: 22
Light Javelin Horse: 19
Light Javelinmen: 16


I'm looking at (at least initially) applying the 15 different distinct ethnicity groups of FoGE and link the most relevant and generic ones to unit types from FoG2 army lists for each of 2-16 below. But not all may be as urgent as others. Which would be the ones to focus upon first? (For example, 5. Dalmatic comes to mind.) (Later I may look at specific individual factions/countries as well.)


(1. Multinational)
2. Caledonian
3. Caucasian
4. Celtic
5. Dalmatic
6. Desertic
7. Egyptian
8. Germanic
9. Hellenic
10. Hispanic
11. Indian
12. Iranian
13. Italic
14. Nomadic
15. Nubian
16. Semitic
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Athos1660 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:33 pm

@kronenblatt : very nice project ! Keep up the good work.

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:23 pm

Athos1660 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:33 pm
@kronenblatt : very nice project ! Keep up the good work.
Thanks Athos: will do my best.

The structure I'm aiming at is as follows:

A. Each of the fifteen distinct ethnic groups in FoGE will get a FoG2 army determined for it.
B. For each of these fifteen distinct ethnic groups and its FoG2 units that vanilla FoGE suggests (in UNITS.csv/xls), one or more FoG2 units will then be identified (each with a probability attached to it), based upon the FoG2 army list for that ethnic group. The probability for each such unit will be based on its maximum number that can be chosen in the vanilla deployment phase of FoG2 (relative to maximum number of the other possible FoG2 units).
C. Once it's time for a FoGE battle to be exported to and take place in FoG2, the armies to fight it out will be determined from A and B above, i.e., for each unit that vanilla FoGE proposes, another unit will actually be used, based on the possible alternative unit(s) and their respective probabilities. Example: vanilla FoGE suggests a Warband (Close Order) for the Germanic ethnicity group, which will be replaced by a Warband (Close Order) with 60% probability, Warband (Loose Order) with 30% probability, Superior Warband (Close Order) with 5% probability, and Superior Warband (Loose Order) with 5% probability. Or what vanilla FoGE suggests as Javelinmen will be replaced by Javelinmen, Light Archers, or Slingers (depending on whether they exist in the FoG2 army list selected to that ethnicity group).

I will shortly post the FoG2 army lists chosen for each FoGE ethnic group, so all can see whether makes sense or some need to be amended.
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:15 pm

And here it is... Alternative suggestions and ideas are welcome:

FoGE 310 BC-190 AD
Caledonian: Caledonian 50-225 AD
Caucasian: Armenian 331 BC - 252 AD
Celtic: Gallic 300-101 BC
Dalmatic: Illyrian 680 BC - 25 AD
Desertic: Arab 312 BC - 299 AD
Egyptian: Egyptian 405-343 BC
Germanic: Germanic Foot Tribes 105 BC - 259 AD
Hellenic: Greek 280-228 BC
Hispanic: Spanish (Iberian) 300-10 BC
Indian: Indian 500 BC - 319 AD
Iranian: Achaemenid Persian 419-329 BC
Italic: Etruscan 330-280 BC
Nomadic: Saka 300 BC - 50 AD
Nubian: Kushite Egyptian 727-656 BC
Semitic: Jewish 163-111 BC
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:44 pm

I've now published a mod for this here, on the FoGE forum. To be further expanded and improved. If you're interested, go there and if you have any comments, ideas, and suggestions after having checked out the mod, I'd be happy to hear from you. Either post in that thread or send me a PM.
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